641. What Happens When You Return from Death? Integrating an NDE - Jonah Van Valin

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Welcome to Soul Elevation: Guiding Your Ascension to New Heights. I'm your host, Kara Goodwin. In this episode featuring Jonah Van Valen, he shares intimate details about his near-death experience and how it took him years to be able to integrate it into his regular life. He also shares other experiences of expanded consciousness, including when his awareness seemed
to pop out above his body, And he found himself looking down upon himself, as well as a powerful experience of pain, where he was truly shown the difference between pain and suffering. After several unexpected life experiences and spiritual experiences, including an NDE at twenty-nine, Jonah experienced a profound inner awakening in 2011. He discovered a natural

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capacity for subtle healing, and now he helps people reconnect with their deeper awareness, release long-held patterns, and live with greater peace, clarity, and authenticity So we'll begin very shortly, but first, I want to invite you to explore everything available for you at karagoodwin.com. Explore my new meditation collections that will assist you in navigating major life events such as pregnancy and surgery. These high-quality
resources have been lovingly created with high vibrational intention, which will support you during these important life experiences. And thank you so much for supporting the show. Your likes, comments, shares, and subscriptions genuinely help this work reach more people and uplift the frequency of the content. Every share makes it easier for others to find these conversations. So if you're watching on YouTube, go ahead and

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hit the like button while you're thinking about it. All right, let's begin. Enjoy this episode Kara: welcome, Jonah. Thank you so much for coming on Soul Elevation. I'm really excited to talk to you today Jonah Van Valin: I am as well. Delighted to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah Kara: Well, I wanna start with your NDE because that really was a turning point for you and kicked things off. Um, so let's start with that, and then we'll go deeper into the heart of your spiritual transformation Jonah Van Valin: All right, we can
do that. So the NDE is, I think of it more really as a, as a tremendous signpost on the journey. It was certainly an inflection point, but by no means could I really say it was the beginning. The, at 29 years old, which was quite a while ago at this point, I was, uh... I had to go through a little Kara: return Jonah Van Valin: I don't actually know what that means. I don't know what Saturn return means. Kara: i- Jonah Van Valin: does that mean? Kara: tw- the 29th year is a big deal because Jonah Van Valin: Oh Kara: the return of

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Saturn. It's the first time that Saturn shows up in the same place in your chart as where you were born. So it's Jonah Van Valin: Okay Huh, okay. Good to know. Kara: Yeah. Jonah Van Valin: it lines up. It does line up. It was certainly a pivotal event. If not a beginning, certainly a pivotal event. It, this began with a, a surgical procedure to solve a sleep apnea issue that was just kind of a genetic quirk in my case, and it was a pretty severe apnea, uh, issue, which if you don't know, is, uh, a
situation where you, you stop breathing while you sleep. And in my case, it was because there was all this, uh, just the shape of my own physiology would block the airway if I was sleeping in the wrong position or something like that. So the, the surgery is to remove all this tissue from the back of my throat, the soft palate. They took a few chips of bone out of the skull behind my nose, and all of this is, these are all efforts to make these spaces bigger so that they don't collapse and, uh, choke off the

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air. it's rarely done these days. M- it's not how most people solve that issue anymore. W- the reasons for that are, are multiple, but one of the big ones is that it's an extraordinarily painful recovery, and they, it just, people don't wanna go through that. And that was certainly explained to me, and it's, I mention it now only because it turns out to be a meaningful part of the story that's coming. but it, it was not a mystery. Uh, what I was told by those doctors is that, I
was going to have to be ready to see what it was like to break my femur and then have to walk on it for weeks. And that sounds a little overdramatic, but it is very apt. it was absolutely blackout-level, mind-bending pain. And you have to, you have to live with it for a little while, because they've removed all this tissue in a part of your body that is not only very, very nerve-rich, but you have to continue to use it, you know, to walk on it, essentially. You have to use it to

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breathe and to swallow and, and things like that. And so I'm in the hospital. The surgery is, goes fine. None of this is an operating table kind of moment. I'm recovering in the hospital. They kick me out, uh, four days later into the care of my father. I'm 29 years old. I'm a functioning grown-up for the most part. but, uh, I'm also a single guy at th- that moment. My father has opted to i- insist that I get carted out to the family house, and, uh, he's gonna watch
over me, uh, during my recovery, which is an act of love I certainly remember him for. And there's really next to nothing he can do. I'm staring out windows. That's about all for a, a few days. And a few days into his care- And the, uh, what I experienced is I can only best describe as simply an inner click arrives, a moment in which there is a l- a, just a literal visceral click inside. And instantly on the other side of that click, it's clear to me that the life force

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animating this body is beginning to drain away. The bo- body is beginning to shut down, it's beginning to die. And there are three kind of recognitions or r- revelations that flood in in that moment , they all happen essentially simultaneously. I mean, I can only describe them in a, in sequence, but it really is very instantaneous that this all just sort of floods in in this experiential moment of this recognition. And the first of them was
instantly that I recognized that I wasn't my body. And the reason f- that that was so clear was simply that that experience that the bo- body was beginning to shut down, it was beginning to lose its life force- was clearly recognized by some other aspect of being. I, the, the body was beginning to die, but what recognized the body was beginning to die was itself not dying. In fact, it wasn't changed in any way whatsoever. It was as vibrant and

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clear as it, as it was at any point. And so there was such a difference between the two. One of these is dying, one of them is not. Ah, they're, they're, these are clearly two different things what I would stress about that in, in that moment was that it was an absolutely extraordinary moment of freedom. And the reason for that is because what that really meant in that moment was that the pain in that body need not be owned. And so it was in that moment of seeing that I wasn't the body that there was a
complete freedom from the suffering in that body. And this really was ... This had been absolute hell for a solid week at this point. It was mind-bending pain. And to be totally released from that is a, it's one of those experiences that can be hard to put into words, I, I've often been asked, "Well, was that an out-of-body experience?" And there's the way in which that's kind of true in a, in a sense. But it's not in the way that most people think of that experience. And that, that was the sort of classical,

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uh, example of that kind of experience was something I was going to have later, it turns out, like a number of years later. But, uh, where, you know, there's a moment of literally, uh, being somehow geographically distanced from my own body, and being able to look down on it and go, "Oh, huh, look at that. Hmm, I'm out here, body's over there. Interesting." Um, this really wasn't that kind of experience. it was, you know, my experience of this body
and the world around me hadn't changed. You know, I'm still looking out of the usual oculus, and looking down at my own body, and recognizing that it isn't really me. In fact, what it showed me was that the body had a sort of illusory quality to it. if the body was, uh, not me, then I didn't have to own the pain in it. it was the first time, and it was not the last, I hope we get to talk more about this, that I saw the difference between pain and

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suffering. The pain in that body didn't change. It was as racked as ever. But I didn't need to suffer it. And I, and I, and I was released from that suffering, because it wasn't mine. That aware consciousness that was not the body wasn't in pain, wasn't dying, was as clear as could be, and need not be disturbed, actually, by the suffering in that body. And so it was not only a release from the, the physical pain, but it was also the first leap into a, a
kind of peace that is sometimes what's re- referred to as the peace that passes all understanding. It's simply called that because it's a little hard to put into words. Since most of the time our usual frame of reference is so very bodily. But this all floods in in this instant. There's a click, the body beginning, beginning to die, and all of a sudden there is this, this freedom, recognition, revelation, peace, and the difference between pain and suffering.

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Um, and I need not suffer it. So after a week of, of that kind of pain, it, it is, it's an extraordinary moment. The second thing that floods in in that instant- Is the clear recognition that the mercury is falling here in this body, the life force is draining away. But it's doing so relatively slowly, and it's gonna be a while. it was unclear how much, but at least a few days, which turned out to be true. what I would wanna stress about
that was then that It didn't present itself as a tragedy or a problem. The way it presented itself immediately was, "Oh, wow, it looks like I'm gonna have some time. What an extraordinary gift to be able to revel in this experience for a little while, maybe even a few days." That first recognition that I wasn't my body is sort of like saying, well, I was still me in a way. There was a sense of I-ness, a sense of me. it just was non-bodily,

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non-corporeal But in the third recognition, and again, this is all simultaneously really, what's clear is that that individuated sense of self, even though non-bodily, was beginning to dissolve. It was beginning to dissipate, to fall away, and to essentially lose its individuality it's in that then that there's, there's a, an even greater level of, of a kind of freedom that arises. what it was dissolving into was the absolute
allness. The... It's one of those things that is, again, a little hard to put into words. Uh, sometimes we use words like wholeness or oneness or allness or... They all fail a little bit But what was meaningful about it in that moment was that that wasn't dis- experienced as a loss in any way whatsoever. Because if something is dissolving into what is absolutely all and absolutely whole, it's missing nothing. It cannot

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possibly be missing anything. And it's so in that way and in that sense then that there could not possibly be any sense of lack or want or need. And without those things, if there's no sense of those, if there's no sense of loss at all, not even possible, there really can't be fear. How could there be? people have often heard that and said, "Oh, that sounds, that sounds horrifying. That sounds terrible. That sounds terrifying to
lose your sense of self." it's more like, again, there's no sense of loss in it. So that, that literal emotion, that response was essentially impossible. and in fact, to be dissolving into what is absolutely whole and absolutely all in which nothing could possibly be missing- Is essentially a state in, in which, it just seems like absolutely everything is present. It's hard to say it again without just repeating myself, but if

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there's no sense of fear whatsoever because it can't possibly exist, then the only really truly natural default setting is something that is extraordinarily peaceful And Essentially, essentially loving. Many people have heard the idea that fear is the opposite of love, love is the opposite of fear, or something like that and I'd say it's a pretty handy understanding the experience of At the time was that as every molecule of life force drained away,
that merging with the infinite, was happening in the same r- the same rate. So the fact that my body was dying didn't come as a problem. It came, uh, it, it presented itself as an extraordinary experience that was the greatest gift I'd ever could possibly have imagined. And in that sense, Kara: like a transformation, like a transfer. Jonah Van Valin: Yes. Yeah. That's a very, that's an outstanding phrase. I'm glad you said that. It i- it is, it did,

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it was. Uh, and again, you know, that's not a... There's no sense of loss in that it was certainly the opposite of that. And so this wasn't, this didn't come to mind as a problem or a tragedy. It couldn't possibly have. And so when my father arrives in the room to have a look and see if I'm still sitting up straight look- staring out windows or something, there's nothing in me that's even inclined to sh- you know, there's no sense of lack or want or need. There's
no impulse. There's no need to say, "Oh, I think I'm dying." I think there's a problem because there is no sense of there being a problem. There really isn't. uh, the only thing that made any sense at all to me in that moment when he arrived at first was simply to s- you know, to smile and to feel loving towards him and say absolutely nothing. And that felt like the best vessel for holding what was happening there. and that's simply how I spent the rest of the

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day. and he would periodically come and check on me, and I'd, I'd think loving thoughts about that and about him whenever he arrived. it was really just a, a, a state of feeling mostly in awe, actually. I, I think that's probably the right words for it. one of the things that I think pretty much all of us can relate to at some point in our own journeys, in our own lives, whether it's staring at our newborn child
or standing on the edge of the Grand Canyon or looking at a giant tree or any other kind of moment in which there could be a sense of genuine and deep awe, is it tends to be a moment that comes in a way that is so powerful and yet so beautifully quiet and very still, and very much infused with a kind of peace that is, I think easily recognizable by all of us, actually. Even though sometimes we forget about it

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and cover it over and a million other things, but I don't think it's particularly unique as a human experience, really. Kara: So you had this period of... You, you were saying that this happening throughout the day, but I think you said it, it went on for a series of days. Is that Jonah Van Valin: It, well, it did, yeah. And th- this is, this was not, you know, an experience that was sort of bouncing between polarities. It was just, it, it, the, you know, that pendulum
swung in this direction at, at the moment of that inner click, and it just stayed that way. it stayed that way throughout the day. At, as night came, there was a, the thought you know, if you, if you've ever been in really mind-bending pain, it's hard to sleep. Uh, but that had been really essentially taken care of. As I, as I said a moment ago, there's, it, it's a, it was the first but not the last time I saw the difference between pain and suffering. Two different ...

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Those can be two different things. And in that release from the suffering of it, uh, you know, there was a thought like, "Hey, I might, I might actually be able to sleep. That sounds, uh, amazing. That sounds so nice." uh, and I did. I, I still woke up periodically through the night, and I would check in, like am I ... Is the body, is that life force still draining away? That mercury is dropping? It, it certainly is, and that merging with the infinite is also increasing at, as exact, you know, in perfect lockstep.
And, you know, into the following morning, and into the following day. And I, you know, at that point I'm beginning to literally feel the body physically slowing down a- and that sort of thing. That merging Kara: up on the l- the Jonah Van Valin: It's a good question. Kara: draining out of you? Jonah Van Valin: He did not at all until later, about, like early, early-mid-afternoon he came in the room at one point, and he looked, he looked, all of a sudden he looked different. He looked at me kinda funny and

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squinched his eyes up and just said, " Hey, I think something's not right." And I think maybe we better load up the car and head back over to the hospital, which was a two-hour drive away. And yeah, we were way out in the country. by the time he said it, and your question is apt because by the time he said it, there'd been some other sort of internal things that had arisen. One was the, the very literal, you know, sort of symbolic depiction of that threshold in, in my own mind's eye. Um,
I, I don't mean to suggest to anyone, not ... 'cause this is not how I think, that this is some kind of literal depiction of what that, looks like in objective terms. I think it's extremely subjective, and it's just the projection of my own mind, you know, creating a picture that makes sense to me of what's otherwise a much more universal, uh, experience. Or, you know, it's, it's the representation of that universality that, that made sense to me. But there was a, a literal image of a,

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a threshold that arose in my mind, and it was very clear that I had an open option to go through it and was heading that way rather swiftly. What was striking about it was that it arose with the clear, notion that there was a choice, that I didn't actually have to go through it. and that made a question arise in my own m- mind, like, "Well, why wouldn't you go through it? This ... How could the peace that passes all understanding not sound like a good idea? That's clearly what's on the other side of that threshold." And that's a
good question. It's a reasonable question to ask, 'cause, uh, I'm sure most people have noticed this side of the th- threshold can also be full of chaos and mayhem. Kara: You don't say? Jonah Van Valin: think, I think it's pretty obvious. I think it's pretty obvious. It's a, it's, it's a dualistic world here. We, we have a lot of beauties and a lot of joys, and also some real horrors here. so that question arose, like why wouldn't I go through the threshold? Why wouldn't I go through that doorway? Why wouldn't that make loads of

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sense? It does. And so what was really surprising to me was that something else arose in that mind that said, I, I think it may not be time. And that was surprising because the way that arose was, with the thought that as I, as I literally approached that threshold and considered what it was like to step through it, the thought that arose was, "There's actually some things you have to do here first." But my, my honest internal response to that was, "Wait a minute. I... Okay, fine, but I don't even
know what those are. but what, what? What, what am I doing here? What am I doing here?" And as a 29-year-old young man, I'd spent, you know, pretty much the previous decade very ardently really trying to figure that out, trying to figure out what to, you know, how to be a person on this planet and do things and, uh, live, live a life. And yeah, be a functioning, live human. And I would say I was doing an okay job of it, but nothing, nothing stellar, and was totally baffled by the question of what I

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was doing here or what I should be doing here. to be faced with the option to go through that threshold and then to refuse it on grounds that were wildly unclear to me, it seemed like a stretch and a surprise that there was something so vivid that said, "Nah, I think I'm gonna stay on this side. It's not time to go through." And it was within an hour of that choice that my father appears in the room, squinches his eyes up, looks at me and says, "I think something's not right. Let's go back over to the
hospital." And I thought, you know, that choice had, had been made, and so I thought, "All right, we'll go. We'll go back to the hospital. I guess I'll stay here." And, uh, so we loaded up and went to the hospital. When we arrive, that becomes the moment that my, my father gets some real awareness of what was happening and that I was about ready to expire completely, so he's thrilled that we came to the hospital. On the ride over, I'm in a fabulous mood. I mean, I can barely speak because of the condition of my

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throat, but I'm trying to crack jokes. The whole thing seems absurd to me. All of it seems absurd in a, like, lighthearted, ab- absurdist comedy kind of way. Uh, I ask the hospital receptionist if we can order a pizza, never mind the fact I could not possibly eat it. And, uh, I'm quickly ushered into an emergency room and, I'm dying for the dumbest reason in all of medical science. My body is shutting down from dehydration Kara: Hmm. Jonah
Van Valin: And it's, it's quite close So that means it's an easy fix. And so a couple of IV bags are immediately attached to me, and I'm begin immediately putting my feet back on the ground here, and that merging with the infinite immediately begins to reverse, and that mercury begins to rise, and this entire experience begins to shift. some hours later, we're back in the car heading back over to the, the, the house, and I have a lot of

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reflection to do because I, I feel like I, you know, I, I got to see what I saw and experience what I experienced, and at no point in there, in any way whatsoever, was I capable of looking my father in the eye and saying, "Oh, yeah, uh, yeah, myself, this body, two different things. One of them hardly matters, frankly. Don't even worry about it." to, to look at my father and say, "Yeah, I'm..." Dying sounded, uh ... I mean, here's something that just, it doesn't, it doesn't get said very
often in public or in polite conversation, but, uh, the experience of dying, ah, magnificent A problem? No. Um, the, possibly the most extraordinary experience that someone could go through? Yes, quite possibly. And I, I recognize that there's a, there's a great, there's a massive variety in our human experiences, and that not everyone is gonna have, experience I did. No one is really gonna have exactly the same experience I did. I, I do think there are some, some great commonalities.

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The, the, the forms, the outward forms that these things take is- As various as there are humans on this planet. But there are some underlying themes and content that do seem to remain the same. And so although it may show up in different ways, in different forms, in, in different qualitative experiences for people, that there does come a point in everyone's journey, and this is... I, I can only say it's my
perspective even though I believe it to be a fact. Uh, nobody can avoid the truth forever. And, uh, there, there does and will and come a point in which everyone is going to begin to, uh, experience something of that, that wholeness, that oneness, that, that allness. And at some point that will even come at the expense of that sense of in- that individuatedness. And what's, what's extraordinarily good news

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to me is that that's going to be, uh, seen and experienced in a way that is so deeply at the heart of what you are and that, that, that essential wholeness, will be recognized as the seat out of which that peace and lovingness in general flows very naturally. it's in that sense that anyone who's ever had an experience in which you felt really peaceful or really loving, which we all have in some form
or another it means that you have touched this kind of experience in some way Kara: Right. Yeah. Well, that's so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that part of your experience. It's, it's really profound, and I love how you talk about the subjectivity of it, you know, because I think that one of the things, uh, ne- near-death experiences, people are so drawn to them, and I think it's a It Because

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there is this an experience Jonah Van Valin: Ja. Kara: to it, Jonah Van Valin: Mhm. Kara: not this, and I was talking about this with a guest recently too, so if listeners are, are like, "Yeah, we covered this in, uh, with Rupert too." But it is this, um, people have gone there. I don't know that everybody, like, puts the, um Like, thinks about why, why do we love these stories so much? Why Jonah Van Valin: Mhm. Kara: why are we so drawn to near-death experiences? But it is because
there's this fear around death, Jonah Van Valin: that's one Kara: that what you've shared is so That's one of the beaut- most beautiful things about that, is the, you know, "Hey, guys, it's okay." Like, it, it'll happen in its own way, Jonah Van Valin: Yeah Kara: but it, you really can't appreciate the beauty of it because there's so much fear around it. But there's also just the fact of, "Hey, I've seen it, and Jonah Van Valin: Mm-hmm. Kara: I've experienced Jonah Van Valin: Yeah.

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Kara: you based on what I think. I'm telling you based on my experience." And of it, of us all being unique and having different spiritual backgrounds, and not ... I don't mean that just from, like, our beliefs, but, like, before we were in our bodies, Jonah Van Valin: Ja. Kara: we've Jonah Van Valin: Ja Kara: experiences as the essence that we are, that's gonna play into our life as a human, and it's gonna play into what happens when we transition Jonah Van
Valin: Угу Kara: it's really powerful, and I wanna, I wanna key in on a couple of things that I wanna go deeper into that you talked about. One is the difference between the pain and suffering. I wanna unpack that a little more. And then you, you alluded to another experience that you had where you were observing yourself this Jonah Van Valin: Mhm. Kara: from a distance. Jonah Van Valin: Ja Kara: both of those I'd love to dive deeper into. Jonah Van Valin: Gladly,

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we can do that. So let's do it this way. The... people have often made the assumption that, which is certainly true for some people in some cases, that this experience that I just described was the number one thing, it was pivotal, my life was totally different from that point forward, And it was kind of a super big deal, but, but in no way did my life change immediately. And it took, for me, I don't think I'm particularly unique in this, but it took many years for this to marinate The
first thing I had to do was heal up. That took about three weeks, and it was at that point that I really returned to regular life, returned to a job. And I can't say that I found it difficult. I just, I found it a little con- quietly confounding, is what I really found it. I mean, I, that choice had been made. I'm gonna stay here. I'm gonna do the things. And so in that sense, it was like, all right, good. I'm gl- I'm glad to be here, made the choice for it And I couldn't figure out

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how to reconcile regular daily life and being late to work. In fact, working at all and having to maintain this whole world and all... I mean, my God, there's breakfast burritos and coffee and jobs and traffic. And how do I square that with recognizing at one point that I wasn't this body at all? Because I seem to be taking very careful care of it and being very concerned about all kinds of things about it and around it and- And I could not reconcile what I knew that I knew and had seen that I'd seen and so on and so forth with the
sort of very ordinary perceptions of regular life that I was otherwise used to. It's not that there hadn't been a few cracks in that before. There had been a few other experiences before this near-death experience that had, had put some cracks in that narrative. I also knew that I couldn't possibly talk about it. I, like, I had no words for this at the time. At- many people asked, "Oh, I- how does, how'd it go? Do you, do you, can you get a good night's sleep? Is the apnea thing solved? Do you actually sleep now?" Yeah, it's going

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great. Super. Um, and not once did I mention the peace that passes understanding. "Oh, I hear you almost died." "Oh yeah, I almost died. Mm-hmm." Uh, not once did I men- mention that it, it was clear that I wasn't this body or that there was a difference between pain and suffering. I, I just, I couldn't fathom how to look someone in the eye and say, "That sense of self in there that you think is you, it's actually kind of a fiction. You know that one, that thing that you've
built this entire life around? Yeah, that one." I c- I could not, I couldn't imagine, I couldn't, I couldn't really understand that myself fully, even though I, there was something about it like I know, I know what I know. I, I, yeah. what actually happened was a lengthy 10-year period of having to go through a ton of additional experiences, most of which I did not know were coming We could describe them as, you know, I suppose in the lingo of the day, they are transformative

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spiritual experiences. and I ended up going through a long list of, many of the, of the things we hear about, you know, classically called cities sometimes one of them, and it- to me, it's really just an anecdote at this point, uh, as far as the out-of-body experience that you, I referred to and you, you asked for was, it was odd only because it, and, and charming to me, only because it didn't happen in a religious spiritual setting at all. It happened in one of the most ordinary
ways it could possibly happen, in the middle of a busy city in the middle of a busy workday. I had actually taken a lunch break. I went to the gym. I was standing on a treadmill. I was reading something that was of spiritual nature. I don't remember what the passage was. I was running on the treadmill, and then for a split second, I was looking down at the top of my own head. I, my, my locus of awareness seemed to have popped out of this general spot and was located about five feet

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above and slightly behind me. I was looking down at the top of my own head running in the treadmill. I was also looking around at everyone else in the gym, and my, the thought in that moment was, "Oh my God, does anyone else see me up here?" and, uh, also kind of fascinating. But I can't say that it was shocking, really. Uh, it was a surprise, but it wasn't shocking only because there had already been a bunch of other experiences, one
of which you just heard about, in which it, it had already been made so manifestly clear that the old-fashioned frame of reference of this is me, this body is mine, it is me. Uh, had already had, uh, you know, enough cracks in it that although, a- again, it was surprising, it was unexpected, but it was really just something that reinforced to me that there's more to the story. And that's a phrase I'm, I'm very fond of. We have so many

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experiences on this earth and in this life, and for anyone that remotely identifies as being on a spiritual path, and many who do not identify with that in any way at all uh, do encounter moments in which we're prompted to go, "Oh, that way of looking at and seeing and understanding the world that I've been carrying around with me this whole time? there's something about this experience right here, right now that just shows me maybe that wasn't the whole story. Maybe that, that perspec- perspective or that paradigm isn't the whole story." And it's just one
of those moments where we have this opportunity to, uh, expand that paradigm a little bit. And, and that's really what that moment did for me. It just reinforced that like, oh yeah, there's, there's more to the story here. I can't, I can't deny or ignore that, e- even more now. I'm probably not gonna talk about it to anyone. I might not te- I ... You know? I'm not going back to the office to ... I, I had a, I had a business partner at the time, and I'm, you know, the thought of going back to the office and saying, "Hey. Hey, buddy. Guess what happened to me?"

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Uh, was not, it, it didn't, it didn't seem like it fit. Maybe some of it's just being a dude. I've had, uh, certainly a long history of being disinclined to mention any of this ever, which makes it somewhat surprising I'm on a podcast. But- One of the reasons for that was also that as these kind of experiences came to me, there was something at the core of them that still touched that awe, that sense of awe. And there was something always, and
still to this day to me, about touching that that just makes silence feel like the best vessel for holding it. And, and that when, when we begin to wrap words around it, uh, as is described by many, many, many people throughout the centuries, really, the minute we begin to wrap words around these things, there's something of their most core essence that is so often lost a little bit. And, and losing that essence seems like losing the most important

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essence of it. So there's something about silence that just feels delicious. Kara: Right. Yeah. Yeah, we definitely have a limitation with our language, and, I think a lot of people can relate with- to that. Jonah Van Valin: Yeah Kara: so as you did your life, you know, you've shared that it wasn't like a before and after, you know, now I'm totally different, and I You know, there
was a, a long integration period. But were there things that you to kind of help keep that glimpse of, you know, or that, that brief, you know, in terms of a lifetime, experience, um, accessible to you and to Jonah Van Valin: Yeah. Kara: it into your regular experience? Jonah Van Valin: Yeah, I, I can say that there, there were things that, uh, some of them were very specific to

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me, I think, and some of them are probably sort of broadly, you know, potentially sort of universal. But the first thing that I, I began to do, and th- this really was an anomaly for me as a, as a young person, was I began to set aside time in the morning, and it could literally be five minutes, but I would just sit down and, and be quiet. And that was... You know, at the time I was not following a
meditation practice, I was not following a, a group or a teacher or, uh, uh, anything of the sort. In fact, I couldn't explain it still to anyone. Um, and I didn't bother. Uh, I just felt a surprisingly inner, uh, powerful inner prompt to, to get up and before doing anything else, sit right back down, probably staring out a window, and just be And I, I think that that actually taught me some, some kind of

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subtle things about non-judgment, actually. Because th- this wasn't an effort to stare at a candle or even count my breath or do, you know, do, do any of these sorts of things. And so if something arose in my mind, there was no pushing for it or against it I wouldn't have even, again, I wouldn't have recognized this really at the time. I'm saying this in a pretty deep retrospective, that I think it probably contributed to, to showing me something about what letting go of judgment, uh, means
in practice. And I, you know, eventually I, I did sort of sometimes have a, a, a lovely experience. Sometimes I was just bored. Some- so sometimes it just felt... Sometimes I couldn't even explain it to myself. I just thought there was something about having a few moments of quiet that I appreciated and enjoyed, and I can't even describe it as spiritual. I don't even know why I liked it. It just seemed like it was good. I feel compelled to keep doing it, and, uh, and I will. Great. that,

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that faculty of it being essentially non-judgmental uh, became a very powerful thread. And one of the things that you, that you asked about was whether it was, you, you, John, y- y- you mentioned that there was another time in which you saw the difference between pain and suffering. And that was another one of these f- actually pretty mind-blowing experiences for me that was very pivotal. It involved another instance of huge physical pain, but
it was physical pain that was induced in a way that was so voluntary, and I, I just couldn't believe it was happening at all. I had, I, I had opt- I'd gone to two, uh, I've gone to two retreats in my whole life, and one of them was a 10-day silent meditation retreat. I'm not, I was not then n- nor now a, a Buddhist, But after all of this, uh, these experiences in which there was some quality of silence that was powerful to me, all of a sudden a

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10-day silent retreat sounded kind of amazing. And so I went knowing absolutely nothing about what I was getting myself into, and it turned out to be 11 and a half hours a day of seated medi- meditation. And, uh, if you, it, for me, if I, if I sat down, it turns out it could, it doesn't almost m- matter what position I end up in. I, there were cushions and benches and all ki- you could have all the accoutrements and toys you wanted. Uh, if I sat still
for long enough, everything below my waist would just start to ache and hurt in a way that I could not fathom. And that pain began to arise in a way that the only thing I could even compare it to was years before when I'd had surgery on my throat, and I thought, "I know what mind-bending blackout level pain is." How can this be happening? And it did, and it cracked me so far open, uh, unintentionally Uh, I sat fighting against it for a couple of days in

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a very macho dude kind of way, like, "I can take it, I can handle it, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tough it out." I'm not leaving. S- r-. Uh, that didn't last for too long. Somehow on like the second or third day, that something arose in me, cracked open a Pandora's box that I ended up having what is often referred to in the biz these days as a life review. But it was a life review of the worst possible kind, because
it was like having all of the collective pain I'd ever experienced physically or emotionally get reviewed all at one time. And it was like having a life review of every moment of pain ever I'd had. It absolutely, I, I completely lost my mind. I was in the middle of a silent meditation hall, there's 60 other people, and I am losing my mind, bawling my head off, shrieking. And there's nothing I can do to control

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it. Kara: Wow Jonah Van Valin: And then it morphs into something that is so much worse that I can't, again, there's no way I could possibly put words around this one. I can't even begin to try. But that went from a, an, uh, the experience of my individual collective pain to feeling as though this mind of mine that was experiencing its collective pain merged into that wholeness, merged into that allness,
but again, in the worst way possible, in essence. And it felt as though that seemingly separated mind returned to its original as one mind. And so it was like feeling as though the collective suffering of eight billion souls simultaneously was being experienced, and that was a level of overwhelm I cannot possibly put into words. I also don't know how long that lasted, and I had no grasp of timing, and

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It, it's, it's wild that at some point, you know, someone dings a bell and everyone's just like, "Oh, I guess this is the part where we get up. And, Kara: Yeah Jonah Van Valin: hope that guy's okay. Jesus." Um, Kara: Eh. Jonah Van Valin: um, and, uh, and, and I c- I walked out of that room a- absolutely shell-shocked, like unable to process what had happened. the, the next morning, I, I, I begin to sit and I'm, I think, I, I just, I don't know if, I don't know if I can handle any
more of this. And, uh, that following morning, it was sort of like the, the day before it was like being shown, "Here's the collective problem. This is ... H- here's your own pain and suffering. Here's the collective suffering of mankind." And in that following morning, that pain began to arise in the body, and I was returned to a very similar experience as to the one in the d- near-death experience, in which the, it was like, "Wait a minute." that sense of self that one normally

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carries around, first of all felt like it had sort of, it sort of expanded to fill the room, and that reminded me instantly like, wait a minute, this, this essence is beyond the body Uh, it, it felt then as though it expanded further. Um, and it was just a, it was a reminder that that aware beingness is beyond the limitations of the body. And again then, not only my own physical pain in that moment, but even the collective suffering of my own life, and it b- it was sort of
like, here's... It's sort of like the divine saying, "Let me show you the other side. You've seen the collective suffering, let's, let's remember now the other side of that, and, and see the difference that you are not the body, and that there can even be suffering in that body, but you don't need to, to suffer it." and so from that point forward to the, for the rest of the days of the retreat, I sat and didn't suffer it. The pain would arise, and I'd be like, "You know what?

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Eh, it doesn't, it doesn't actually disturb me." It really didn't. there was something in my mind going, "Oh my God, how do I, how do I understand this? How do I unpack this?" The moment that, that sticks with me is there were, there were three little words that arose out of that divine mind that were essentially like, "Well, if you want to understand how suffering ceases, here you go." And it was, those three words were give up judgment And let's be clear, I've, I, I feel like I spent
the next bunch of years trying to understand what that really, really, really meant But what I can tell you is that in that, in that instance, first of all, there was another... It was another case of seeing the difference between pain and suffering. it was a moment of seeing that my own mind, uh, uh, really is like a fragment of this collective, that all the suffering, whether it's in my own mind or in that collective mind, could be viewed as... Suffering could be viewed... The way it

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arose in that moment was suffering is essentially a misthought. It's a mistaken, it's a mistake in thinking. Now, our, our ordinary human egos can take that in a, in a very tricky way that I, I would, would wanna be very delicate about. But, but, but overall, it- that's, that mistake in thinking was encapsulated in those three little words, give up judgment when we judge, and I mean, I mean the kind of judgment that breaks things into right and wrong, good and
bad, and, and, and harshness. it, what it does is bring us to a state of instant separation, and we've already spoken today many times about things like wholeness and oneness and allness it's, it's judgment in us that tends to break things into parts. Right and wrong, good and bad, up and down, and so on and so forth. And so there's a lot to unpack on that one But, Kara: Ja Jonah Van Valin: And, there came a bunch of other additional experiences with other family

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members, people in my life who were, who were dying, was another way that it would come up and, you know, like forced back to in touch with these kinds of experiences. And, um, i-i-in the end, the, the most pivotal experience was not the NDE, and, and it wasn't even the one I just described. It was a point in the journey in which it, that, that sense of being in touch with the experience that this individuated sense of self is, a fiction, even though we have
to sort of entertain it to operate in this realm, and yet it could still be seen as a fiction. And there was something about that awareness that sort of wavered in and out during, uh, these years, and these are the kinds of experiences that, you know, forced me to reconcile with that. and there came a point in which that, that awareness or that recognition did feel like it, it settled into something permanent, like that pendulum ceased swinging. And, and

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that was actually the most pivotal, uh, period in the journey. And that did, uh, I mean, my life took a completely different turn, um, and it was very, very clear and obvious it was never gonna go back to the way it was before. It hasn't. And that, frankly, began another 10-year period of, of, Of living into that and I suppose learning to abide with it and And
eventually begin to, uh, even abide in it in a way that makes it possible to share Kara: Mm. Yeah. That's beautiful. Well, I know that now you are working with people in, in that capacity, so as we wrap up here, can you share how you are working with people and how they can find out more about you? Jonah Van Valin: That's very sweet of you. Thank you, Claire. Uh, yeah, I

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work with people one-on-one. I work with people in groups wherever I'm invited. I, I, I'm very fond of traveling. I've went around the world twice in the last year and a half. there's retreats, uh, uh, occasionally. I, I love a good walk. I love a good walk. And so the, uh, the next big retreat, um, there was one on the El Camino in Spain. That one just closed, and, uh, so the next one's actually gonna be next year. I love the walk as a
metaphor for the spiritual journey, and the spiritual journey as a metaphor, well, as a part of the hero's journey. Um, if you are a human, as far as I can tell, you are on a spiritual journey. You are also on the hero's journey. They, they go together beautifully So yes, I work with people one-on-one and, and speak in groups, uh, when I'm invited to, to do that. the best way to get a hold of me is simply to go to my website, which is at

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assistthespirit.com. And anyone is welcome there. Uh, wherever you are in your spiritual journey, you're welcome to this table. there's lots of resources there. I'm not that hard to find these days. Kara: Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for being here. I've loved hearing your story and connecting with you. Thank you Jonah Van Valin: Cara, thank you so much. It's been a joy. Peace. Thank you so much for joining me for this episode of
Soul Elevation. If someone in your life would be inspired or uplifted by what you heard today, please take a moment to share this with them. These are the kinds of conversations that ripple out and elevate collective consciousness. And if you haven't yet, be sure to subscribe so you don't miss the powerful episodes ahead. Your presence, energy, and support truly help amplify this mission of raising frequency and anchoring in a more awakened

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humanity. Thank you for your support, and I'll
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