630. Rupert Isaacson on NDEs: What Really Happens When We Die?

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Welcome to Soul Elevation: Guiding Your Ascension to New Heights. I'm your host, Kara Goodwin. I'm so excited to welcome my friend Rupert Isaacson back for another episode that's gonna expand your consciousness and pique your curiosity. We talk about his near-death experience, the shamanic healings his autistic son received in Mongolia, Africa, Australia, and the American Southwest, and we even
explore topics such as black magic, the Knights Templar, quantum physics, and so much more. This conversation was an absolute blast. Rupert Isaacson is a bestselling author, filmmaker, and humanitarian known for his groundbreaking work in autism and healing. He's the author of the international bestseller, The Horse Boy, which chronicles the extraordinary journey he took with his autistic son

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across Mongolia in search of healing through horses and shamanic traditions Rupert founded the Horse Boy Foundation, which supports families affected by autism and neurodevelopmental challenges through horse-based and nature-based programs. He's also the author of The Long Ride Home and The Healing Land, continuing his exploration of indigenous wisdom, healing, and the profound connection between humans, animals, and nature. So we'll get started
in just a moment, but first, I want to invite you to explore everything available for you at karagoodwin.com. You can get my book, Your Authentic Awakening, as well as a selection of guided meditations to strengthen your spiritual side and access to powerful workshops and classes to support your ascension journey. And thank you truly for supporting the show. Your likes, comments, shares, and subscriptions genuinely help this work reach more people

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and uplift the frequency of the content. Every share makes it easier for others to find these conversations. So for those watching on YouTube, go ahead and hit the like button while you're thinking about it. All right, let's begin. Enjoy this episode Kara: Well, welcome, Rupert. I'm so excited to pick up the discussion where we left off last time. Thanks so much for coming on Soul Elevation. Rupert Isaacson: Thank you for having me back Kara:
Well, for those who are tuning in, please go and listen to episode 578 for Rupert's backstory and to catch up on that. That was a beautiful discussion. We covered a lot of ground in there. Um, we talk about your son Rowan's major developments from dealing with autism, from a shamanic family journey through Mongolia, is just an incredible story. Uh, Rupert writes about that in The Horse Boy. then after our interview, I read your follow-up, The Long

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Ride Home, and I got to meet you personally because you were in my town a month ago, I think it was about a month ago, for a training workshop, which the synchronicity of that is really wows me because I live in Indiana. You are joining from Germany. I think when we recorded last time, you were in Spain. really don't have a connection to Indiana, it... or you didn't until this workshop came up that, yeah, that was organized by somebody else, and it was literally, like, 15 minutes away from my house. I mean, we're not talking like you were the next state over. You were literally in a town, like, just minutes from my house. And the way that that all happened, I, I, like,
knew about it, but hadn't registered and hadn't, like, absorbed the date. I thought it was actually coming up, and then I followed up on it, and they were like, "Yeah, the second day is happening tomorrow." I was able to kinda drop everything and be like, "Okay, I'm coming," you know? And I kind of found out about it that morning, um, and then had a great time at that workshop and learned so much. Um, but you have expertise in so many areas from using horses to open up communication channels with, uh, for people with autism, to other ways of using nature to reach kids with autism, and you've got your shamanic background, your own near-death experience, the plight of

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African tribal nations, and so much more. So I feel like today I want to start with your near-death experience because people take such notice and attention when someone has seen beyond the veil, and you have a lot of ways that you've worked beyond the veil. But I'd love start with the NDE. So would you mind sharing the details of Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure. Sure. Um, best thing that ever happened to me. Um, so the wa- the reason it happened
was I broke my leg badly in a riding accident. Um, those people who know my story know that I'm a horseman, and, uh, I work, you know, not just in the therapeutic field, but also, you know, we jump and do dressage and I go hunting and all that stuff. Um, anyway, so I, I pu- was jumping a cross-country jump badly, and, uh, the horse tipped over in a somersault and came down on top of me. And luckily for me, it was just my leg. My left leg

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got broken in a bunch of different places. So I'm in hospital, they put a rod in it, um, and I'm in the recovery room and, um, like, you know, you have that little button on the morphine machine, so I'm, "Mm, mm," you know, giving myself, "Ah, mm," just floating along. And the machine malfunctioned, and, uh, I got an overdose. And, um, so the next thing I know, I'm down
the tunnel talking to God. And, um, so many people describe these things in the same way, um, that there is a tunnel. Um, there is a light at the end, and at least in my experience, there were beings coming to and fro within that tunnel. And the sense of it, and I can't say they... what they were for sure, the sense of it was that they were angels, and off on assignment,

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um, coming, going. And but the overwhelming impression was a feeling, um, an emotion, and the emotion was one of absolute relief. Um, and I, I don't know anyone who's had a near-death experience who has not had this or that I've read about, you know, who... It's, it's profound relief.
It's like, "Oh, home. Right. Yeah. Source. Forgot about that. Mm. Oh, how nice. Oh, no income tax. Oh, ah." You know, just like, like that, literally. And then the, um, light spoke, and what the light said was, um- The, a- and the light was pure love. And what the light said was

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basically life, the universe, and everything, to, to coin that cliche. You know, what you understand of as existence is all an exercise in love. Think of it like a termite mound or a beehive. And you all, you humans, are like termites or worker bees, and your job is to make the hive, the termite mound, get bigger. And it's composed of
love, so the way you do that, all that I require of, of you, the work I would like you to do, is simply this. To love actively And that's it. And anything else you do is up to you. And, um, if you don't love actively and don't want to do my work, then that's also okay. It's not like there'll be, you know, spanked bottoms or anything.

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Um, you're not gonna be punished for that. It's just that you won't be as happy and fulfilled as if you do because obviously that's kind of going against what... Yeah. But that's all I require. And even if you don't do it, it's kind of okay. And, um, I had the same reaction, which I think anybody would have, which is, "Ah, right. Of course." You know, this just confirms what I think everybody knows in their
intuition, and how reassuring and how nice. And there's also a feeling of absolute safety. It's like when you die, you are safe. You can't be harmed. You're, you're beyond that. Like, someone could be busy doing something horrible to your body and you'd be like, "Eh, I'm out of here," you know? "Dude, knock yourself out," you know? You know? Um, play with your little Legos, you know? Yeah. Um, you're, you're

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beyond harm, you're beyond that, and you're heading home. Um, now I did not go beyond the light because, um, what happened was, as I was going, "Oh, yeah, lovely. Mm," I suddenly thought, "Oh, shit, my son." Kara: Mm-hmm. Rupert Isaacson: I turned around and I could see my body on the, uh... By then a trolley. And I was very lucky that my wife, Eliana, who you just met, who was just sorting out this
Descript, um, who's techy, um, happened to be in the room and has an eye for detail and noticed that I'd gone blue, and called the medics. And, um, they're like, "Oh, shoot. Um, machine seems to be malfunctioning. Oh, oh," you know? So they're wheeling me out. And then it-- Getting back to my body was like... There were two things. One is that it wasn't exactly my decision. Um, there's very much a feeling of,

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if you go back, you're sent. And to get back, you-- it was like walking through a- If you can imagine a field of tall grass, but the grass is made of, of ectoplasmic goo, um, but strands of it sort of thing. It was like-- It felt like that, and then, boof, I'm back in my body. And I look up at my wife, who's German, and I want to s- ask her if I'm okay, but what comes out of my mouth is, "Ngh." And I'm like, "Oh, God, I... Am I brain
damaged? Oh, no." And, um, then I, you know, try again. I'm like, "Am I okay?" And 'cause she's German, she can't lie, right? She goes I'm like, "For fuck's sake, you know, couldn't you just once, just once, you know, just, just lie to make me feel good?" You know, it's like, it's about morale here, you know? It's about bedside manner, you know? So of course, you know, sense of humor kicks in. And, um, so I'm chuckling as they're

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wheeling me down, you know. But I'm, I'm still absolutely, um glowing from this experience, and I'm just so grateful. Um, because I, I think that everybody deep down knows that that is the truth. and it raises some other interesting questions, which is that, well, if everything is love, well, what of evil? What of people that do intentional harm to each other and that sort of thing? And the only conclusion I can come to there is that it's
still love, it's just a very twisted form of it, looking for it in all the wrong ways and wong- wrong places. But it's still composed of that. And, um, it actually followed on from an experience I once had much, much earlier when I was 25, like 4,000 years ago, and I was in, I think it was the Eocene period, you know, when... That not quite, not quite the mammals we know, but the previous mammal. Um, the, the... I was on Table Mountain in

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South Africa. My family's African, and I was with a cousin of mine. Okay. So it, it is and it's, it's a magical spot, and it's a sacred spot, and it's a power spot. I went down with a fever and, um, uh, became a bit hallucinatory up there, and like, "Oh, better get down 'cause I don't know if I can stay conscious." Yeah. And luckily, my cousin and his housemate were actual medical students, so, so I couldn't have been in better hands. And they got me down off the
mountain, and as I was coming down that mountain, it's a big mountain, um, I was re... I had this other realization. Oh, um, I remembered when I was a little boy being in school, in the chapel in school, and seeing on the wall a little inscription saying, "God is love, and love is God." And knowing absolutely in my gut that's truth, in the way that a child can know that without needing any explanation. And look, I don't know why that's true, but that's true. And

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that came into my mind during this feverish experience. And as I'm coming down the mountain like, "Okay, well, if God is love and love is God, then... and God is everything, then everything must be love. And if everything is love, then that means that the T-shirt that I'm wearing must be love because plants must be love, and my T-shirt is actually made from the fibers of plants." And so my... Yeah. And the, the, the, the, the dye that's on my shirt must also be because that's chemicals which come out of the rocks, which da, da, da. You know, and
then we get down to the car and it's like, yeah, this car door, which is metal, um, which is steel, you know, it's iron, which is the, the earth, which is, you know... And, and, and the, the, the fossil forests in liquid form that are powering this car are all love. It's all love, and there's no hierarchy , between like an industrial product and a, and a, quote-unquote, "natural product," that it's all just love. And then I passed out. And so it was ... But it stayed with me, obviously. Um, so I feel very lucky to have had those two experiences.

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And, I, I've read many accounts and heard many accounts and met the odd person who's had something similar happen, and that seems to be usually some sort of similarity there. very nice to know that there's absolutely nothing to fear. There's nothing to fear. Doesn't matter what you've done. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't. It's irrelevant at that point. It's all about love. Forgiveness is part of love. You
yourself will forgive. Like, if you're in that tunnel and you're thinking about things that people have done to you, and you're like, "Eh, eh, it's okay. Okay." You know? "It's okay. They're okay. It's all okay. I love you. It's fine." You know? Um, and it's nice to know ... It, it like ... Really it's the, the shirt I'm wearing, isn't it? Look. Just feck it. Sure, it's grand. Kara: I love that. Yes. That's amazing. Well, how,

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did this change you from that point forward? If it did, maybe that's presumptuous, but, you know, you'd had all of these shamanic kind of experiences. You've lived a very interesting Rupert Isaacson: been lucky to experience, a lot of that kind of thing, um, beyond like going for a workshop in Ohio where someone says they're a shaman. Yeah, no, no, um, I've, you know, been with-- lived with tribes that, you know, do this. Um, I'm lucky, very lucky that that has been my experience.
So yes, I've seen a lot of things that can't be explained rationally, and we could go into what some of those were. the odd thing is I don't think those types of experiences change you. I think what they do is they confirm the authentic you And I think women go through this actually with childbirth. childbirth is a near-death experience. it's a shamanic experience. You go into an altered state of consciousness or you wouldn't repeat the experience You know, if you've ever watched a

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w- you know, your wife go through it, and you're like, "You're gonna do that again? You must be mad." You know? And it's like, well, yeah, because you're in an altered state of con- you know. but that, to be taken to that extreme of pain and that extreme of stress, to birth another life, possibly at the expense of your own. This is always a strong-ish possibility. It's not dissimilar, I think. And so, you know, then you say, well, then why is that woman who had
those kids and experienced this great onrush of love and this... Why is she like a total cow now? You know? And they're, well, because there's the moment... But she's not always a total cow. You know? Like, or someone, a man who's been through things like that, well, why is he a bit of an asshole sometimes? Well, because that's the human condition. The human condition is to find love where it seems there is not. That, that's the real Quest, I think, in many ways. Um,

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so of course you're going to go back to some old habits, and you're going to... not going to be a saint. But you also realize there is no such thing. I think there are some people who are born with that touch of the divine, that they're almost a bit like bodhisattvas, but even them, they're not saints. Not really. I mean, I know a couple of people like this. I think many of us do. Um, and they'd be the last to take that moniker upon themselves. They'd be really uneasy with that. does it change you or does it... But I think, I think what it does do
is it gives you a sense of security, a sense of perspective, and also it's very nice to be able to reassure other people when they're afraid, to say, "Look, it's-- it'll be all right. It really-- It will. I've, I've been over there. It, it will be okay. You-- Of all the things that there are to worry about, that is not it." Kara: Yeah Rupert Isaacson: and the only thing you have to worry... You know, the only people who get sad with dying are the people left behind. The person who's di- died is just grand. They've just gone home, and they're like,

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grand. You know? Like, So that is nice. and I think it's also nice just to have one's attention constantly brought back to love. But you don't have to die for that, you know? Um, and I'm not sure, I was ever that far from that, despite, you know, silly choices I've made and poopy butt decisions I've made and when I've been a, you know, a dick in my life, you know, 'cause of course I have. But if I have been a dick, it wasn't with the intention of trying to
hurt anybody, and if I did hurt people along the way, I, I'm sorry, you know? Um, but I'm that-- You know, I'm not like, "Ha ha, I'm going to hurt this person." No. No, that's not... No, no. It, it, it, it, it opens doors. It, it gives you a certain- strength. Yeah, and, and sort of, y- Faith Kara: Yeah Rupert Isaacson: Faith Yeah. In the, in the, in the true sense Kara: because you've, uh, one of the things I think that attracts people to NDEs so much is the

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confirmation or the experience, because that's the difference between faith and knowing. I mean, the actual experience, there's a lot to that, and I think that's why people are so drawn to like, "Oh, this person has had Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure Kara: on the other side." And so there's the faith of like, "I think, I'm pretty sure when I saw this, this thing that told me when I was little that God is love and love is God," That felt right. But then to,
like, that's a belief, it's a concept, it's a, it's a, you know, it, it's not the experience that comes with that NDE. Rupert Isaacson: Now you, you, you could, you could argue, I think that shamans in places like the Kalahari and the Amazon and so on go through that regularly, and they do it on behalf of people. They, they, they go boldly over to that other side. Um, so when you go into the spirit world, there are many ways to go into the spirit world, but

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it's universally accepted, particularly among the Khoisan, the Bushman shamans, who get there through trance, that you do actually die sometimes and have to be retrieved or find your way back, which is why they usually do it with a partner. Um- Kara: was your experience that you Ride Home, where you had, uh, there were three more journeys. When you went to Mongolia, there were three more journeys that you were advised to take with to
complete his, to complete what had started in Mongolia. And one of those did take you to the Bushmen in Africa, and, that did happen, Rupert Isaacson: did. It, it did. So yeah, what happened was... So yeah, for those who read The Horse Boy or saw or The Horse Boy documentary, the shaman of the reindeer people in Mongolia, Ghost, who did the main healing on my son. How amazing to have a shaman called Ghost, you know? Uh, but that was his name.

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Um, immensely effective dude. And he said, "Look, the healing has start- I've kicked it off, you know, and certain things will go away." And indeed, you know, Rowan took his first intentional poo like 27 hours after that and cleaned himself. It was extraordinary, like watching England win, win the World Cup, you know? And, Kara: so Rupert Isaacson: we got so close, I know. The closest we've gotten in a long time, but we... Th- th- they, they, even though the Argentineans played horribly, they were the better team. I have to,
have to admit it. Um, but we're on our way up. We might get there next time. You never know. Um, wouldn't that be great to have my autistic son become toilet trained and see England win the World Cup? Well, hey. Kara: that's Then Rupert Isaacson: we, we- Kara: y- you can definitely sail into the light have compl- like, it's Rupert Isaacson: well now then we need to win the European Cup, yeah. But then, but Kara: than the World Cup? Rupert Isaacson: in some ways because you're, you're up against all those, um, powerful, powerful

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teams. Yeah. Kara: true. Yeah, 'cause they don't all make it. Like Italy didn't Rupert Isaacson: Exactly. Exactly. But it doesn't mean they weren't really good, you know? Or the Netherlands or, yeah. Um, but okay. So, um, we went to the World Cup for okay, yes, I un- know where we were. So, so we're on the mountain, um, and in, in, in Mongolia, and Ghost says, "Yeah, you gotta do three more, um, journeys to confirm this. Otherwise,
it, it might sort of be a bit fragile and slip away." And he said, "I know that you can't necessarily come to Mongolia every year, and especially not to this bit of Mongolia," which is, like, ridiculously remote. Like, it's a National Geographic style exhibition. Exhibition? Expedition to try to, to get in there. It's, it's not easy. Um, weeks and weeks and, you know. Okay. So, um, i- he said, "Well, you, you know, you know

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other shamans, Rupert. Go, go to them." So I said, "All right." And, uh, so the following year, yes, indeed, we were out with the Bushmen. The year after that, we were in the Daintree Rainforest in Australia with the Kuku Yalanji sha- uh, Aboriginal shamans. And then the year after that with the Navajo Reservation, uh, Navajo on the Navajo Reservation. And in each one, there was a massive leap forward. Um, but this one with the Bushmen, yeah, when we showed up, the main healer, who I knew, a guy called Unter,
Unter was his name. Um, and then we were getting a guy, Bessa, who I know the best of all or knew the best of all. Many of these guys have passed on now. Um, my... I was always called Little Bessa in the Kalahari. He was, uh, Oubessa, Big Bessa, and Rowan's middle name is Bessa. Um, and my experiences with Bessa with shape-shifting and that sort of thing, we can talk about if you want to. But suffice to say that, um, he was gonna be, it, it... And then, so there were gonna be at least two guys, and ironically,

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we had to bring Bessa in from Botswana over the border into Namibia, the neighboring country, 'cause I'm banned from Botswana for my human rights work. So we had to figure out a passport for Bessa, who lives under a tree or, you know, did, and that was a whole thing, like how to get him into... But we did. And, but then when Unter, uh, saw my son and put his hands on my... He said, "Oh, this is too big for me." He's like, "I, I need
backup." He says, "I know who I need. I need my friend, Nui. And, uh, Nui I haven't seen for a while, but he lives in a village about a half a day's drive that way, so you've got a vehicle, you know, let's go see if Nui is there and if he can do it." So we, we drive over, and we find Nui, and what's so lovely about these types of shamans is they... There is no reverence. Like, you do not approach these rituals and ceremonies like a

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No. It's, like, totally human, and they're just, like, insulting each other and taking the piss, you know? Um, one of the best quotes I, I ever heard was, uh, from t- one shaman meeting another. S- one saying, "You, with a face like an old dead spirit," and the other one saying, "Death to your penis." You know, that's how they are, right? That's how they are, right? It's real, right? These are, like, real people. There's not... They're not Uh, holier than thou or, you
know, new... They don't know what the word new age means. You know, it's, they, they, they, they, they, they're fucking hunter gatherers, you know? They, they are the most practical people you've ever met. So they just crack jokes all the time and talk about assholes and sex, you know? And, um, so... And that's what everyone talks about all the time out there, you know? And, um, while at the same time, you know, living the most ancient culture on the planet and being very

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good to each other. So anyway, we find Nui and Nui comes over and we do the first ritual, and in that ritual, Nui does die. And you can see it happen. He just literally, it's like someone put a spear in his back. In the course of the trance dance that they were doing, he, he convulsed like this as if someone had struck him and then on his face, like not crumpling gracefully to the ground or something, just total face plant, like nose breaking face
plant, um, I think into the fire. Um, and they frequently fall into the fire when, when they're in this state, and they're so hot 'cause they've, they're making their num, their life force boil. They can go in the fire and not get burned. They will eat the coals of the fire. You'll see them do this a lot. Rub the coals of the fire all over their hair and their skin and their chest and yeah. And then when they're healing, they're often bleeding. They'll

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bleed from the mouth, they'll bleed from the eyes, they'll bleed from the nose. Yeah. Um, vomit, you know. They t-take, they'll take the healing through the, the sickness through themselves and out sometimes. Anyway, he's dead. And so, um, then they, we have to spend the, the, the entire rest of that first night just trying to revive Nui and... Not Unto goes into the spirit world and he's now doing battle with the ancestor spirits for, uh, or negotiating
with them for Nui. And, um, so then when they come out of that, they're like, "Well, I guess we'll have to try again tomorrow." So, you know, we need to sleep because this is exhausting. We just danced for 12 hours. Yeah. Um, so they do, and then they go in again, and then the next time they're successful, and then they're done with it. And then the third night, Basa showed up and, uh, finished the work. But it took three guys. Three guys. And

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everyone I brought Rowan to kind of went, "Whoa, okay. This is, uh, okay. All right. This is gonna be professionally challenging, but let's have a go." Um, when We were in the, uh, Australian rainforest the following year, and the ceremony was done by smoke, with smoke, with sacred bark. They waft the smoke over you. You sit in a chair while they do it. And the healer was... Mooks was, uh, uh, had no... He had no shirt
on, and he was doing what you'll often see in healing rituals. No matter where you are, you'll often see people as if they're taking something out of your spine, and sometimes putting something in and taking it out. But you'll see that in the Horse Boy movie. You'll see ghosts doing that to Rowan when Rowan's sitting in his lap, and you'll see it with the bush. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a universal sort of shamanic

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tool. And, um, so he's doing this, and he's doing this, and he's flicking his fingers into this chipped old coffee mug. Um, so, you know, me and Rowan's mom, we sort of can't help ourselves. We're like, "Mm. What is... I wonder what's in that?" You know? And like, I don't wanna be disrespectful, but I wanna see what's in that. And, and so we look and, uh, yeah, it's starting to fill with this viscous, gooey, snotty liquid with like little bits of blood in it. Like literally if you blow
your nose when you've got like, you know, bad snot and it's got all those little veiny bits and stuff. You know, you know what I mean. I mean you probably don't, but p- like me do. And, um, it's exactly like that and it's kind of funny, but there's, there's can be no sleight of hand because there's nowhere he could hide this. And of course I have to ask him like, "What is that?" And he's just like, "Ah." And then the next... 'Cause come back tomorrow, and the next day we come back and

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same thing but less. The third day we come back, same thing but only this much, and each time he just chucked it in the fire. He said, "It'll be fine now Fine for a year. And, uh, after that came this, uh, what call, what you call theory of mind, where suddenly Rowan was able to understand that other people had oth- other perspectives, um, which is something that
comes quite late with autism. And, uh, and this mathematical, um, ability just popped up sort of literally a day after that. And then the final, the final healing, the, the year after on the Navajo reservation, um, really, uh, uh, different mechanisms. Um, they put a reed on the person and suck out what's inside, and black stuff comes out through the reed, and,

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um, some people say, "Oh, they put the black stuff in the reed," but you look at the reed first, you know? And, um, they-- There's a five-pointed star which is made of a fire which points at the person, and the way the ash burns tell... gives clues as to what's going on inside the na- inside that person and then what needs to be sucked out. And, um, after that, within, uh- Again,
they usually, they're often over three days. the last ceremony was at dawn, and, uh, we had also sweated on Rowan's behalf, and pollen, corn pollen ceremonies and, and so on. And, uh, that last day we were driving out on I-40, and, uh very prosaic, you know, you stop at a truck stop with a McDonald's, you know. And, um, Rowan wants, you know, a horrible fruity flavored chemical

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shite drink, you know, which I don't wanna give him, and he's had no protein, so he's having a tantrum about it. And I'm like, "Eh, all right. All right," you know, "Happy. Go on, knock yourself out. Spoil the whole day. Just, you know, be, be, you know, tantrum going over." You know, I'm like, "Eh." And he's like, "Eh." And then from the backseat he goes, "I'm not tantruming, Dad. I'm just telling you what drink I'd like." I just had to go on over onto the hard shoulder. I'm like, "Who
are you? Hello, my name's Rupert. Who, who are you?" And, um, that was it. Um, the, you know, the next day at, uh, breakfast in the hotel in Albuquerque, you know, on the way back to Texas where we were living, he goes and makes me a coffee and comes and says, "For you, Dad." I go, "Who are you?" Yeah, yeah. Um, so, but the thing about death, yeah, and death in, in those shamanic circumstances, that's something which they become familiar with, and they're not afraid to go in. But when you

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ask them, "Is it terrifying?" They say yes, because the, the, the means of death can be terrifying. Um, because they're... Like I say, I think in that case he was struck with a spear. Um, because they're going after darker entities who don't wanna give up the soul of the person or the negative effect perhaps, um, or the suffering that's being caused. Um, and however this plays out, whether you feel it's metaphor or whether you feel it's real or
somewhere in between, this is the experience of the person who's going through it. And, you know, people should be skeptical. Um, skepticism is very healthy when things are outside of your ken. It's not like we walk around the streets every day having these types of experiences, so of course one ought to be a bit skeptical. But particularly when a long-haired bloke like me comes along and says, "Oh, you have to... I went to this place where you never w-

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will never go and met these people you'll never meet, and you have to kind of believe that these things happened." I totally see why, you know, people would be skeptical. But, What one must consider is that these people live in these places which are extremely far away from any kind of Western medicine. They will use Western medicine. They're not stupid. I mean, if it's around, they'll use it. It's easier to do that. It's easier to take a pill than go into a trance or crush up a, you know, five different herbs and gather them and, you know, it, yeah, hey,
that's a pill, right? Great. But the fact is that they don't have access to it very much, and if, if they did, they might have to walk, you know, a week. So obviously they're gonna fall back on their traditional practices and, um, well, they get sick like anyone else. And so if, if these things didn't work, they'd die. They'd all be dead just because of the... I- if you had to walk five days to a doctor for an infection, that infection would likely kill you at some point in your life, right? So particularly if you had some kind of chronic condition or whatever.

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Um, so nonetheless, they get sick, they get better. So, you know, skeptical as one might be, people have been doing this for millennia, and they've sort of gotten by. So bye. Kara: Right. Right. And it's, it's interesting what you said about what they were coming up against, the danger that they were in on, in the astral basically, or Rupert Isaacson: They do it on behalf of somebody else, yeah. They're like special forces going in Kara: Well,
what did you learn about what was the root or, or some of the roots of Rowan's condition? Rupert Isaacson: Different things were said, but i-i-in, in the shamanic world, in the indigenous world, let's say, rather than the shamanic world, 'cause shamanism is just, you know, a, a s- one side of indigenous culture, um, everything is seen through the lens of ancestors You could argue, however, that it is exactly the same in Western allopathic

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medicine because everything is seen through the eyes of a g- gene environment interaction. Um, do genes affect environment? Does environment affect genes? We know that both are true. Um, so one person's ancestor and another person's genetic is sort of the same thing, but in different language and seen through a different lens, but it is effectively the same. So the, the roots were looked at that way. So in Mongolia, the horse shamans, before
we got to the reindeer people, the shamans of the horse tribes, pinpointed ancestors they said that were unhelpful on his mother's side. And what you have to understand, you know, some people said, "Oh, that means they're just blaming it on his mom." I'm like, "No, not at all. That's no more than if you had been born with a condition or something that comes to an inheritance." There's no, there's no blame involved. There's just, this is

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how things happen. Yeah. Um, but there's no sort of... There's no shame there or deficit or something, you know. sin or... No, no, no, no, it's not about that. Um, but some unhelpful ancestral activity, who knows why, on that side to do with water. I guess water carries memory. Did-- And they, they were speculating, so did, did his mom spend some time in water in a particular place where there might have been? And if you think about it, you know, well, I suppose you could drink bad water, or you could
be in water with bacterias in them or, you know, who knows? So, you know, we, we were, you know, of course, discussing this and like, "Well, what do you think?" "Well, I don't know. What do you think?" And neither of us could really quite pinpoint a thing, but, but the shamans too themselves would say, "Look, we're just speculating here. This is just information we get as we're coming." But they're more practical. They say, "Here's what you need to do." in that case, there were some rituals involving

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water and liquids, including vodka and reindeer milk, and horse milk actually in that particular one. with the reindeer people, it was reindeer poop soup. They kill a reindeer, kill a reindeer and put every part of it in a sou- in a medicinal brew, including its poop, and you have to drink it. Um, yeah, the world is a funky place. Kara: Yeah. Rupert Isaacson: like reindeer poop
soup? Sure, I'll drink that. Um, oh, it's only grass, right? Yeah. Um, so the situations you find yourselves in. Um, it's like here I am drinking reindeer poop soup. Um, That was about as far as anyone speculated that there could be ancestral activity going on. But one of the other ways to interpret, of course, that is a susceptibility, an ancestral susceptibility, perhaps to certain

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environmental factors. So I could go into what I considered to be the causes of Rowan's autism, because there was definitely a medical event where he was okay, and he had words and all of that. And then there was a medical ev- then on the other side of that medical event, he was not okay, and he lost all his words, and we lost him. And I'm not gonna say what that was because that's just too much of a can of worms, and then you get into this whole thing, are you this pro person or this anti? I don't wanna go there Kara:
and I think we can, we Rupert Isaacson: We use your imaginations. Kara: might have been Rupert Isaacson: but You know, you, you could argue that because some... many people go through those events and are just fine. You know, are there certain people with certain genetic ancestral predispositions to certain impacts from certain pharmaceuticals and things like that? The answer is yes, we know there are, because that's, that's all comes out in the drug trials. And, and is that the liquid that's being... You know, and

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so on, and so on. So, you know, there, there are many ways that you can interpret it. But I'm very practical. My, my feeling is, well, whatever causes something, what do we do now? So for example, in all the work we do with autism, many people come with a story of post-medical event stuff, and the question is, well, okay, but now it's happened. So this is where we're at. What are we gonna do? And the nice thing is neuroplasticity is real. You can effectively regrow a brain.
You can do it from stroke, you can do it from a TBI. Um, so when the brain ta- the brain takes a hit, and particularly if you've got, someone very young to begin with, then you can kind of relax a little bit and go more slowly. If someone is, you know, your loving aunt who's in her 70s or something, and there might be some more urgency to it. that come... Then, then you get into the scientific aspect. But I guess, I guess really what I'm, pointing out here is that the

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esoteric or the seemingly non-rational explanations are actually very close to the seemingly rational explanations. Kara: Yes. And I love how you marry Rupert Isaacson: Right. If you can, if you can be, if you can be comfortable with that ambiguity, in there you will find effective practice because you will leave no stone unturned. You won't say, "Well, I don't believe in that, so I'm not gonna look there." You'll say,
"No, I'll look, I'll look in every single thing from peer-reviewed, pharmaceutically, blah, blah, blah, to stem cell-y, blah, blah, blah, all the way to Kalahari trans fire," because it's actually all the same thing. Kara: Right. Well, and, and am I right in remembering that particularly the Kalahari, that trip, that they were tuning into some retaliation for, for the work that you had done Rupert Isaacson: Ah, there

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was some speculation about that. You're right. I'd forgotten that Kara: with the like, um, because under the, the attack, you know, you talk the Rupert Isaacson: Yeah Kara: they were under and why it was so hard for them in the ether from the, from the spiritual side why they were under such Rupert Isaacson: Hmm. Kara: I Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, you're right. You're dead right, actually, and I'd, I'd sort of forgotten because it wasn't a large part of the story, but it was
definitely there. Yes, you're correct. Um, so okay, other part of my life history. So I w- I told you I'm banned in Botswana. I was part of a team that, um, but I was a very pivotal part of a team that helped these same people, um, regain access to their ancestral land after they'd been illegally evicted to make way for diamond mines and all kinds of nastiness, including torture and all sorts of things, um, accompanied that. And we helped them against all odds because they were up

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against De Beers Diamonds, and they had people like me helping them, you know? Um, it's like, um, and Kara: reindeer poop soup. Are we sure we Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. right. Oh, next round's mine, lads. Anyone for a... Uh, do you want the, a full head on yours or do you want it, you know, cappuccino with your... Um, so, um, and we, we actually won in the Botswana High Court, which, which, which is run by the very
people that had done the evictions. And by a, an really also slightly shamanic... Well, not slightly shamanic. The shamans were very much involved in this. Um, we won against all odds the la- largest land claims in African history about four times in a row. And yeah, people were pretty angry about it. And, um, so, you know, angry enough to ban me, angry enough to send the secret police after me, and I had got a

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tip luckily, and I managed to get out of the country just ahead of them. those people in those high offices of Africa and in business in Africa too do often resort... You see this in Brazil as well, and places in Mexico. Often resort to malevolent practitioners of spirit, purveyors of spiritual negativity, let's say. You could say black magic or witchdoctors. You... There's many ways you could put a name on it, but nonetheless, this, these rituals are sought out, yes. To...
If you don't believe me, in South Africa alone, there's a whole wing of the South African Police Force nationally which only deals with witchcraft-related murder, whether it's people who've been murdered because they've been accused of being witches or whether it's people who've been caught ritually murdering people for their body parts to use in rituals. It is very real, and it goes on all the time. It goes on in New York, in the West African communities. You'll fi- you know,

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headless bodies of children might be found floating in the East River or something like that, and it, you know... Th- th- this kind of thing, you know, it happens. it's actually a bit of an industry. Now, the difficulty and the stupidity of that is that anybody who engages in any kind of black magic ever, which is trying to sort of harness metaphysical forces in order to do harm for somebody else, here's my warning, lads. If you... No matter how justified and
angry you think you are, do not seek revenge that way. Do not seek revenge any way, but especially not that way, 'cause it will come back on you 10,000 fold. That's just the law, okay? And tempting as it might be, don't do it. Kara: you Rupert Isaacson: And, Kara: entrain yourself you can't Rupert Isaacson: Yeah Kara: it. You'll be on the Rupert Isaacson: So the, the, the people that do do that, the practitioners, they're all mentally ill, and they all die

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early. It consumes them, but they get quite a lot of power and money and prestige while they do it because they can charge a lot of money for that kind of thing. So their thought was that somebody had m- maybe had, had a go at me that way, and it kind of hit Rowan. Um, and they took it away, and they sent it back. And I said, "I'm not interested in that, whoever that was, being punished. you don't..." And they said, "Well, Rupert, that's got nothing to do with us. It just goes back where it came from. That's just how it is." but it's very important not to be
vindictive. It doesn't mean you can't have the odd vindictive thought, just don't act on them, and don't stay there. And when you do have them, try to notice, okay, you're human, but don't take them seriously. Just... And, and the worst is when you... It's righteous anger. When you have the right to be angry, it's when you're the most at risk spiritually because that's when atrocities get done, 'cause you have the right. Kara: Hmm. Rupert Isaacson: don't go there. Yeah. So now the Bushmen, for example, you cannot get them to do those kinds of black magic rituals.

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They will only do stuff for healing. So for example, you couldn't go to them for something to make your business do better or to make somebody fall in love with you or something like that. No, they would refuse. They'd say that's perverting the sen- you know, the healing only. Uh, transmission of love only. And or... But if you go to, uh, healers who are coming out of, say, warrior traditions, you have to be more careful. So for example, when we were with the horse shamans in Mongolia, not the reindeer people 'cause they don't make war, but the...
There's obviously a strong warrior background in the horse tribes in Mongolia. They were for qui- many millennia really the most violent people on the planet, and then they discovered Buddhism in the seventeenth century and just all totally chilled out. Um, but there's still vestiges of that there. You have to be a bit careful who you choose and so on and so on. If they... Kara: Genghis Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, um, we've got to remember that was their history for a long time. Not just him, but many like him. And then l-

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some amazingly, one of the great, one of the greatest things in human history was that some monks wandered over the Altai Plateau from Tibet into Kazakh, Mongolia, and started talking about this thing called Buddhism. And it was like a collective pinching of themselves right across that nation when they're going, "Oh, yeah, I guess we don't have to kill everybody from the Pacific to the Mediterranean every 25 years. Yeah, I guess we, we could kind of chill out." And they sort of did. if you're going, like within
Native America, there are many, um, uh, the, the warrior traditions are very strong. Shamans do battle with each other. You can get some bad ones, you know? So you, you ha- So for example, when we were in the Navajo reservations, I was very careful who I went to, and it's a whole system of referrals and feeling people out and, one of the bottom lines is anyone who comes to you with any sense of theater like, "I am a shaman," yeah, just don't go near it, yeah. Luckily with the Bushmen that doesn't exist. Um, they are

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hunter-gatherer, pre-farming, pre-warrior culture, but they're surrounded by hardcore warrior cultures that regard them as subhuman and have used them as concubine slaves and so on for a long time. And so when they were cheeky enough to say, "Actually, we'd like legal title to our ancestral land, please," And went up against the aristocratic hierarchy of the royal house of the Batswana tribe, which runs that
country, who had been using them like this in the same way that, you know, royal houses and aristocratic houses in Europe misuse the peasantry and, you know, it's the same thing. well, that couldn't be tolerated, you know? So, so anyway, yes, you're right. There was an element of that, but when I talked it through with Bessa and others afterwards, they said that was a s- it's a, that was a small part of it. Um, but

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big enough that we got n- got nailed. But nothing... But they're like, "But nothing we could..." They're like, "Ah, but nothing we can't handle, Rupert." Kara: He's just gonna come Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, gonna... Kara: the fire and Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and then, you know, and then, yeah, then we'll, we'll smoke a joint and, you know, drink a beer and, you know, then go hunting for antelope. Yeah. No, I mean, it's, yeah, it's, yeah, yeah Kara: It's Well, so in Rowan's progression with through these
healings and so forth, what, was it linear? Was it like he went to Mongolia and then he got a certain amount better, and then he stayed better, to Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it was linear like that. Yeah. And actually, I'd say that after the, um That f-- the first healing in Mongolia, uh, by the time a year was coming up, he was beginning to slip back into some of the old dysfunctions. And I could really see, yeah, there's some urgency now to getting him to the next one. So luckily I was already planning it, uh,

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before, you know, from the moment we got back from the first trip. Um, I've been around these guys enough to know that if they tell you to do something, you do it. You just do it. Um, that's why we're in Spain , you know? Uh, the bushmen told me to go there, so I did. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I don't hesitate if, if they, if they say, "Do this." And also, but not just them. You know, for example, I, I, uh, used to fox hunt a lot, you know,
in terms of English fox hunting, you know, with the, all the fancy clothes and all of that. I grew up with that. And, um, I was told by a Navajo shaman to stop, and that it was somehow connected to my son, so I stopped the same day. You know, it's like I've learned over the years that this is real, and to not do yourself out of the benefit of that help. Accept the help. Yeah, yeah Kara: Well, and so th- do, you have this, um, from

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perspective perhaps, you know, you, you have more experience with the esoteric than maybe the average person. But, it's a great challenge that you've, that you went through. W- let's go back to faith and the role that faith ... You know, uh, did, did you always have really solid faith that that this path was the best path forward? you know, did doubts creep in? And if so, how did you, how did you pull yourself out, if
that was ever a case? Rupert Isaacson: I can't remember a time when I haven't been aware of God. Um, one of my earliest memories is a walk in the garden of my parents' house very early in the morning. I must have been five-ish or so, and I, I couldn't... I wasn't allowed to make noise to wake the adults, so it must have been a Sunday morning. And I think it was a summer morning, so I just went walking in the garden,

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and there were... There was a r- a red brick wall and plants growing out of the wall and bees, and I remember hearing a voice inside me and outside me saying, "You are loved." You know, "This is God, by the way," you know, and, "You're, you're okay." And so no matter how much of an idiot I've been or a selfish twat, um, and I have, um, I've never lost that awareness
and... But that awareness doesn't stand in judgment of you. That awareness kind of rolls its eyes at you, you know, and says, "Oh, yeah, okay. Well, I guess, you know, when you're finished, you know, rolling around in your own shit, then, you know, um, I'm still here." Um, and so yes, I think I've always had that sense even in very dark times, um, even in despairing

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times. Um, and I'm grateful for that. I was born with it, and I'm not... I think everybody's born with it. I d- I, I don't think there's a single child, young child, who doesn't have that sense. I just think it gets knocked out of them because we, we imitate our parents. Um, so it gets knocked out of most people quite early. But obviously, it's always been there because humans have
always talked about this, and they will always talk about this. Um, but if you want a controlled population, then it's a very good idea to separate them from God because then they'll be in a sense of despair, and then they'll probably go fight a jihad for you. Yeah. Or a crusade, you know? Um, or modern equivalents with AI or whatever. So yeah, I think everybody has it. I think I was just

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fortunate that perhaps because of the African connection... You know, I didn't really have spiritual, um, conversations with my parents, but at the same time I never heard that side of life being rubbished. Kara: Yeah Rupert Isaacson: And then I was actually, weirdly, I spent a lot of time in the Anglican, what you guys would call Episcopalian church, not for any religious
reasons, because of my voice. So I was drafted into the choir of the Temple Church in London when I was Uh, what? Nine, 10. Because my mom figured out that the schools that provided the boys for that choir and for the Chapel Royal, which is the king, or the, at that time, the Queen's private chapel, um, get a free education at one of the really posh schools in London. So

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she had me try out, and I-- So I got into this really posh school, which would've been really expensive to go to, um, because of my voice. So I was drafted into the choir. I'm neither baptized nor confirmed, and I'm half Jewish, and I'm not circumcised either. So I went in as a, I just was like a professional, age nine, drafted in to high Anglican ritual. And high-- And the Anglican Church is, um, as close as you can be, get to being a Catholic while being Protestant because it was 16th century Henry
VIII when he wanted to divorce Catherine of Aragon. You know, Martin Luther had just very conveniently come up with this thing called Protestantism where you can divorce your wife, and he was like, "Ooh." But, you know, for, for his Church of England, right? But he, he'll break with the Pope, but he always maintained for his whole life that he was still Catholic. Um, so the, the outward, um, expression of Anglicanism is very similar to Catholicism. You've got incense. You recite the creed. You, you know.

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And, uh, when you recite the creed, you say, "I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the, forgive us." And you're like, "Well, why do I believe in the Holy Catholic Church? I'm sitting in..." But hey, they want me to say this thing, so okay. I guess I'm, they're paying me. You know, so... And they did. They effectively paid us, you know. And, you know, we would go on tour. We would record. So when I say the Temple Church, I'm not sure everybody knows what that means. But I'm sure everyone listening to this has heard of the Knights
Templar and all the conspiracy theories around the Knights Templar. The Knights Templar existed, right? So the Knights Templar were a crusading order of knights that began in France. Um, and their mission was supposedly to, and it was actually at the beginning, to keep the roads to the Holy Land safe for pilgrims because they'd got, you know, bandits. And then when they were in the Holy Land, which is as violent then as it is today, if not more, to have all these castles where, again, there, there, there was protection. And the idea

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was that these were aristocrats who gave up their worldly thing to become like warrior monks. And It was, um, a man called Bernard of Clairvaux, who was a mystic, a very powerful influential mystic Christian in the 12th century who really put-- lit a fire under this and got the-- made the French king back it and so on and so on and so. It was the French king who eventually killed them all, but that happened a
couple of hundred years later. Um, so what happened was very quickly, um, it became very successful and became in, in multiple countries, and the first other country it went to within Europe was i-in England. So there was a priory of the Templars in 12th cent- early 12th century London, and the Temple Church was their church. And so I was there in this-- it's the second oldest building still standing in London, and

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all the effigies of the Knights Templar are there. And what it is now is it's the seat of law. So the High Court in London is just on the other side of the street, and all of the courtyards that surround, courtyards into courtyards into courtyards into courtyards, it's like a bit of a fantasy landscape or cityscape, that surround the church are, um, the old quad- quadrangles of the old
priory. Uh, but it was huge. They had a lot of money, and 'cause you can imagine they had all these land grants from England to Jerusalem. Like, shit, you know, it's a lot of cash. Um, 'cause they-- with that comes, you know, agricultural lands and tithes and rents and so on. So powerful people. And now all of those quadrangles that were the priory now house the chambers, which are the offices

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of the barristers and the judges Of the British High Criminal Court. So the guys that wear the wigs, right? Yes, my lord. My own, my... Yes, my lord, my... Take him down and hang him. Yeah, that, that's the seat of all that power, and, um, I found myself in it. Um, not baptized, not confirmed, not a Christian, not a Jew, there for my voice. The Magna Carta sits in that church. If you don't know what
the Magna Carta is, it's the thing that your constitution is based on. Uh, 11th, 12th century document because we had a bad king, King John. You know him from Robin Hood. He's the naughty king, um, when King Richard comes back, who was actually naughty, too, but hey. Um, you know, Robin Hood gets reinstated, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The King John was indeed a massive poopy butt, and his barons

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rebelled and forced him, you know, at swordpoint to sign a document saying their rights were, you know, inviolate. He then, of course, tried to go back on it, and then they had another war and blah. But it was that document which is the basis of the American Constitution. So this was surrounding me in London at the same time that I was also growing up in this sort of bubble at home of Southern African colonial white S- white Southern African culture with a Jewish
dad, African Jewish dad, and white Jewish mum. And so I guess I got to see things from a number of perspectives. But when I was in that church, So, so the history of the Templars was, the reason there's all these conspiracy theories about them, is that they became bankers, right? They, they became ... And after the Crusades stopped being successful, people started saying, "Well, what's the point of having these guys, and why should they be so rich?" And what they were

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doing was they were le- lending money, like the Jews, to the royal houses of Europe. So they were all the royal ... All the kings were in debt to them at, you know, favorable terms of interest. And, uh, King Philip the Fair in, um, France said, "Okay, enough of this," and had them all ac- accused of sodomy and witchcraft, and that's why we have Black Friday. Um, that's why, that's why Friday the 13th is, is we're su- Friday the 13th, 1306 or 1307, there's mass arrests in Paris and, you know. And
then they don't get them all, so a lot of them get away, and they, and they were after the money. Where's the big Templar treasure? Is it under the priory in Paris? Is it under the priory in Jerusalem? Is it under the priory in London? They went there, they didn't find it. So the idea is it went somewhere, and there's all these ... They had the Lost Ark of the Covenant that they'd found under the Je- you know, Temple of the Mountain Jerusalem and brought back and da, da, da, na. Then they took it

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to Scotland or Nova Scotia or Mars or, you know. And, um, a b- a bazillion Dan Brown movies later, um, one can have a lot of fun with this. But the fact is they were real. They were real people. And, um, it does look as though they, their survivors influenced what became the Rosicrucian movement, which became the Enlightenment really. Um, and that Freemasonry probably owes a debt to them. But whether or not they
are Freemasons or were Freemasons, who the hell knows, and probably not, no. But it was interesting to grow up among all that and with this very real power. I mean, these guys, these judges and these barristers are the law. They ... And, uh, government is less the law than the law practitioners, um, at that level. This is not like an attorney, like a powerful New York attorney. It's a whole other species of power

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because a powerful New York attorney like Giuliani could get the ear of mob bosses, some of whom might even end up becoming the President of the United States. It's really, I suppose it is the same process, but it's we're talking a thousand years of it as opposed to a hundred years of it or a hundred and fifty years of it. So what was interesting is that despite the fact that this was the atmosphere and despite the fact that there was a lot of violence, we were beaten,
we were encouraged to beat each other. You've read the book, I don't know if you've heard of the book The Lord of the Flies, where a bunch of choir boys get stranded on an island in a shipwreck. It's a failure in there, and they revert to barbarism. It was a bit, it was a bit like that. Guys going off to hospital all the time with head injuries, broken ribs. Like seriously, all of us in our little cassocks and are like just mega violent. Mega violent and encouraged

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by the adults. Um, different time. Despite all of that, the, and the suffering that went with that, I was very aware of God in that. You could feel within the ritual, within the high Catholic ritual, you could feel within that raised vibration love and beauty, transcending all that stuff. And then that allowed me to understand Christian-- modern Christian mystics like C.S. Lewis and on the
Protestant side, Tolkien, for example, who were very Christian. Uh, Narnia's all Christian allegory, you know? Um, so is, so is The Lord of the Rings. It's effectively, uh, Pilgrim's Progress just with swords and horned helmets. More fun. Um You can understand how those guys going through World War I and losing faith with their own country, what are we even here dying for? We're not-- why are we at

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war with Germany? Hold on, 'cause somebody threw a bomb into a carriage in, in, in Serbia, and that meant that the Austro-Hungarian Empire went to war with Prussia, then what, why are we involved? And oh, because then they inva- invaded, uh, Belgium, and we're supposed to have a, a, a, an agreement with them, and now here we all are age 19 dying, millions of us in the trenches of France. I don't give a fuck what's going on. You know, those
guys, Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, who survived that experience were completely disillusioned. They were not fools, and they were not Uh Naive is not the word. They were not suggestible. They were not superstitious. They were not... But yet they became mystic Christians, which is very close to the shamanic core of love. You know, what are, what are the stories they're telling with Aslan, and Aslan gives himself up, you know, like Christ, and,

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um, what, what does Frodo do? You know, Frodo fails. Fails at the end. The, he, he, he, the power's too great for him. He's just lucky that Gollum grabs him and bites his finger off and falls into there. But he, Frodo actually fails. It's the human condition. Love, forgiveness, compassion. And I could feel that there. Do you know what I mean? It's, it's, it's very interesting. I, I think many people who grow up You, someone you should have on this show. Do you remember, um, when I was doing the training in Indianapolis, I had a co-trainer with me, um, Leanna? Kara: Yes Rupert Isaacson: up in one of the most stringently conservative Christian environments i-in terms of non-compassionate Kara: Hmm. Rupert Isaacson: it somehow in her forged one of the most compassionate
individuals I've ever come across. Be worth having her on the show. There's something about those environments, I think, that can so starkly show and illustrate what's actually true, and you realize that God and love exist in all of those environments There's no hierarchy. But as the light said when I died, it's just a whole lot nicer if you go around loving each other, you know? Kara: That's so fascinating because it is such a stark contrast what you've talked about. And, and even from, like, the first that I was... Like, before I even knew you, but I was reading or listening to The Horse Boy, there were just things within that that I thought with your story where I was like, "Is this guy in a secret society or has he been, or what is the..." And it's like the more

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layers that come up, it's like, oh my God, you've been at least very, very near them, are, um... So, like, all the things you've talked about, the Templars and how, like, you went into the Rosicrucians and, and I would argue, you know, that, that they're very close to the other side and and... But then there's also the Illuminati connection with that, too. There's the other side, which is, you know, I don't think working for
humanity. And so, but it's so... It's all two sides of the same Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. Indeed, indeed. And often the same person who could be involved in a secret society that is not doing the best things might perhaps in their private life be very kind. Like, it-- these things are very, very ambiguous. Um, and the thing about conspiracy theory is that people have always conspired, but people don't always conspire for evil. People

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frequently get together, which is-- and decide to do things, which is what cons-con- to conspire is. Doesn't have a necessarily, um, negative connotation. that's just part of being human. You sit around the campfire, you make plans with people that kind of are your mates. Um, now, obviously there are people who try to get power and do bad things and always have been and always will be. but they usually don't get much further than themselves in that-- So people say, "Well, they're running the economy, they're running the world." Yeah, maybe. there's a lot more random in there. They're
only people at the end of the day. "Ah, but they have access to the Anunnaki and the..." Maybe they do. But even if they do, the Anunnaki, even if they're aliens up there with more powers than us, they're still only people. They're not God. if you believe in that, you know. so... And Illuminati is not necessarily a bad word. Illuminati just means enlightened. So, you know, in the, in the 18th century, the Illumi- to be part of the Illuminati meant you were not, you know, burning people at the stake. It was a, it was a good thing 'cause people were coming out of, you know, the backlash

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against the Reformation and, you know, all of the nasty religious wars and religious atrocities that happened, you know, particularly in Europe, you know. Um, that's what Illuminati meant then. And somewhere along the line in the late 20th century it came to mean bad blokes, probably American, um, somehow connected with the Freemasons, somehow connected perhaps with Founding Fathers because they were all Freemasons. You know, somehow they're all connected with Kara: the things that you talked about with the Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But
people, people have always done that, right? So, you know, is, is there a lot of black magic in the Catholic Church? Probably. Probably. But is there a lot of love in the Catholic Church? Yeah. Are there, like, are there bad black magic Navajo shamans? Yes. Are there massively healing Navajo shamans? Yes. Which one do you wanna hang out with? Yeah. and somebody might even go through a trajectory in their life where they followed the bad to know the good. Kara: Mm-hmm. Rupert Isaacson: or bought an ideology and thought they were doing good because

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they're trying to preserve order you know. So th- but there's a lot more randomness to all of this. Like, God isn't the... I guess free, I guess what I'm... Free will I do think is a real thing, and, um The lovely thing about that is it can change at any time People can have their road to Damascus moments, and actually quite often do. Redemption is a real thing. are the Illuminati gonna do us all in if they exist? I don't know. I think AI maybe might be something to worry about a
bit more. Um, are-- is the AI part of the Illuminati? I don't know. Does it matter? It's here. What are we gonna do about it? Kara: Mm-hmm. Rupert Isaacson: how do you wanna live yourself right now? If you go around worrying about powerful people doing naughty stuff, well, guess what? They are. They are absolutely out there doing it, yes. And yeah, if possible, you'd like to stay below their radar and not... And, and also don't join their ranks 'cause don't think they-- even if they

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offer you, put not your trust in princes 'cause, you know, they don't give a hmm about you, you know, even if they offer you some goodies. but hey, if you're starving on the streets of Rio de Janeiro, and some crime boss comes along and... You know, organized crime, crime bosses, that's also the Illuminati. That's also-- And we know that that exists, so why wouldn't it exist on the industrial, royal, uh, dynastic family? It-- Yeah, it's always existed like that. But within, within the same families, you'll get people that completely eschew
it. Within our present administration, you get people within that family who completely eschew what is happening within that family, and you get people who within that family who are 100% going for it 'cause they want all the goodies. If you take it, if you're looking at it from the perspective of, say, the Kalahari, let's say you're a Bushman, and you think, "Well, every, every motherfucker's come down here and tried to do a genocide on us. Every single one." Diamonds is only just the latest in a whole... And now it's not even that. Now

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it's gone to aluminum and other, and rare earth metals Kara: Translating to aluminum. Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. That weird word that you guys use. You say aluminum, I say alum. And, um, uh Their perspective is we were here before you guys started arguing about all this stuff and worrying about all this stuff. We will be here after that, too. What do you all want to do with your lives in between? Are you going to go walk around feeling paranoid and just listening to a bunch of YouTube videos on the Ill-Illuminati?
I'm not saying you shouldn't. They're quite interesting. I do sometimes, but not all the time. Um, I, I quite like to ride my horses and write books and, you know, work with autistic people and plant trees and, you know, do the things that I-- hang out with my friends and drink beer, and burble on about this sort of thing. so one has to be careful of the paranoia because the paranoia is another form of black magic that will just d-negatively affect your life. You're here right now. What are you gonna do

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with it? What do you feel like doing right now? You know? Kara: Yeah, yeah. I love that. you know, a lot of the things, what I, what I have found as we've talked, opened so many portals. Like, there have just been all of these different points in the conversation where you're bringing something up, and you open a door to memories of my own personal life. talking about being a child and experiencing God in a certain way, and even relating to a
car. You, you were kinda like, "Oh, it's the metal in the car, and it's the gas in the car," and all of this. And I'm like, oh my God, it just opened this memory for me of being a young child learning that it, uh... I wasn't super religious. I... But, you know, my, my religion was Episcopalian, as it happened, and went to, like, a vacation Bible school of my babysitter's, you know, church or whatever. And they were talking about how Jesus is

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everywhere. Jesus is everywhere. And I was, like, literally considering that when I was in the car, when my mom picked me up, and I'm like, "Jesus is everywhere. Jesus is on the ceiling of this Rupert Isaacson: Jesus is the car. Kara: Right. And but Rupert Isaacson: Jesus built my hot rod Kara: Yeah. Is that a, is that a Rupert Isaacson: It's a song. It's a song by a punk rock band called Ministry, who were a lot of fun in the '90s, yeah Kara: Oh, Rupert Isaacson: had the lead singer with the butthole surfer singing. It's very good. Yeah, you
should listen. Kara: Oh, I'll have to look Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. Mm-hmm Kara: I'm just picturing in my child's mind, like, uh, and like the embodied Jesus, but, like, invisible, and he's on the roof of the car, and he's next to me in the car, and he's a- also next to me on the other side, and he's out on the street, and he's... You know, but I'm trying to get my mind around if Jesus is everywhere, what is that like? And, and kind of feeling like he is on the, the roof of this car. He's on the ceiling. Like, it- but I just can't see him. And it

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was a new concept to me in that sense, but it was also like some part of it was familiar. also opened a doorway for me being out in the early morning as a child and f- and feeling the dew on the know as, Rupert Isaacson: ��������� Kara: this is nothing for you, but I hardly ever feel the dew. I'm never really out on the land early in the morning anymore, you know? So it was like, oh, yeah, the dew on the grass and the way the light comes in when it's really
low on the morning horizon and it's lighting the dew up on the grass. But things that I had to search my memory and try to be, you know, poetic about, but it just opened this door to like, oh, yeah, oh, there it is. Yep. You know, and, but it's things I haven't thought about in so long. And, you know, differ- so I, I wanted to call that out because I want to invite other people into that experience for themselves, because I do think that there was

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so- there has been something bigger happening as we've been talking, and I think that people will be able to relate to that, and I, I want people to have the opportunity to reflect on that for themselves. And it also made me think about, um, before we started recording, we were talking about the shamanic element, and specifically around time Rupert Isaacson: I, uh Kara: you've experienced time. And, I do wanna be sure that we touch on because, Rupert
Isaacson: Yeah Kara: this was even before we recorded, but you were opening up these portals for me of like, oh, yes, that, I relate to that absolutely, and kinda making me think about things in a specific way. So we talk about time a shamanic kind of view on time, what, what can you share about that in your experience? Rupert Isaacson: Right. Um So the, the reason it came up in the conversation before we hit record, if I'm correct, was that, um, you said I

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really d- you've done all these things, you know, how'd you have time? And I was like, "Well, weirdly, I feel that you can create time And that my sense of time is informed very much by people like the Bushmen that I've worked with, where there's a sense of vertical time rather than linear time often. It's not that linear time doesn't also exist for them, it does, but it's not the only expression of time. And vertical time would be, you know, past, present, and future all at the same
time. You could... All at more or less in the same moment, you could take the elevator up to there, or you could tune your radio station to there, could tune your ra- you know. Um, rather than this thing is gone, this thing is now, and this thing will be. I think both are true. It's, I think that if you can hold the first thing that I talked about, that vertical idea in, in your subconscious, therefore first in your conscious and then in your subconscious, then what happens is you

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start to live your life a bit that way, so that you can... People talk about multitasking. Um, you can l- you can do more than that. I think you can live parallel lives simultaneously. So you know, people do this actually all the time. They'll, they'll maintain a home in this city and have a home out here in the mountains or a home out here on the beach, and they have a life that's where they are in the city, and they have a life where they are, um, what, that holiday cottage or that other thing. They might have two jobs. You know? They might have three
jobs. Um, they have a, a, a life and an emotional life and a professional life and a financial life, and that's completely different and parallel and concurrent in each of those three jobs, while perhaps also living in those two houses. Maybe they also have two families. Maybe they're divorced. You know? So maybe their ex has kids over there, and they have kids over here, and then they swap and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And they're not withdrawing love or withdrawing affection from the first lot because they've now got the second lot. No, they're

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integrating. So I think, I think this kind of thing actually is much more in people's experience than they might think it is. It's just that often it's so tied up with the mundane that people don't notice, and they don't actually give themselves enough credit for, uh, how much they do create reality in a way that is often very beneficial for those around them. If you, if you're struggling and you've got three jobs, the people that depend on you are benefiting from this. If you are wealthy and you're maintaining, you know, a, your swanky
thing in Manhattan and your beach house in blah, blah, blah, and your ski resort apartment there, you're actually creating all this employment for all these people, and you're... You know, there's all these people that will end up relying on the little ecosystem and economy that you have created there, and you're actually g- you know, as long as you're not being horrible to people, you're actually doing a lot of good for a lot of people. There's people's college funds being, you know, paid for by the fact that you are doing these things.

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Um- You, you know, you might decide to create a bee garden on your roof in Manhattan and a bee garden in your place in the da, da, da. And then you might give to a charity here, and then you go and you do mission work and down there. And so I think people actually do this all the time, but they maybe don't do it consciously. And I think this is perhaps the difference. And I think I've-- that's happened to me for a lot of my life, is that I was just really interested in a lot of things. I'm just really curious about a lot of things, so I tend to say yes to things. So the next thing I know is like, "Oh, well I guess I'm
doing that as well." You know, and, um, next thing you know, you know, you're part of the year in Africa and part of the year in what part of the US you live, and then you're part of the year in London 'cause your parents are there. And you freelance, so you're picking up work in London, you're picking up extra work as a journalist in Africa because you gotta make a buck, you know. And you're also doing whatever you're doing in the USA and then... So, and then I'm training horses at the same time because I love them, and I'm good at it, so people pay me to do it. But at the same time, I'm also writing a book and doing...

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S- so I think it was, it's only been a, a relatively recent thing where I've become conscious of it in that shamanic way that I've seen people be able to simultaneously be human and a leopard at the same time, Kara: Mm-hmm. Rupert Isaacson: or human and a plant at the same time. And you realize that this has been the human experience since the get-go. We are We're, we're, we're always living on multiple dimensions, whether we're aware of it or not, without thinking astral plane or anything. I mean, you can go
into that if you're having these shamanic experiences, but I'm talking about right here, right now. Um, because if you- if one thinks about, what was it Nikola Tesla said? You know, that if you want to understand the secrets of the universe, you have to think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration, right? And we weren't... By the way, none of us were taught that in physics at school, were we? None of us were taught, taught Tesla. None of us were taught... We're taught Newton. We weren't taught Tesla. We

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weren't taught Bohr. We weren't taught Max Planck. So interesting, isn't it? These giants that, that, you know, i- i- that the fact that we were in a room in a school with an electricity network that could not have existed without Nikola Tesla, we were not taught about Nikola Tesla. So interesting what they decided to withhold from us and what they decided to... So they, they presented us with an idea of Newtonian physics, which is all about linear time and certain limitations. But of course,
you know, now we know quantum physics, it, it cannot be denied. But when you and I were at school, quantum physics was still regarded as somewhat science fiction. So despite the fact that people have been messing about with it for generations. Um, interesting. Okay. That's good if you wanna keep people limited. So if one then takes it to heart that perhaps these dudes sort of knew what they were talking about, 'cause clearly they did, otherwise we wouldn't be u- using the technology that we're

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using now, 'cause that all comes out of Tesla's stuff, then one can be a bit more intentional about it, I suppose. So if somebody says to you, "Well, why not do this cool and interesting thing?" And you say, "Well, I can't because I've got to do this and I've got to do that, and I've got no time." And you're dead right, and you're dead wrong. Because time is both linear and non-linear. So the linear time Expression of yourself truly does
not have time to do this other thing. However, the vertical version of yourself does. How do you marry that up? Well, I think if one calls one's imagination, and everything starts in the imagination, right? So someone imagined Descript, which is the particular, um, program that we're using. Someone else imagined Zoom. Someone else imagined the microphone that I'm speaking. Someone else imagined how to use silica for a screen. People imagine

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these things, and because they imagine them, they figure out how to do. So everything starts in the imagination. I might have a cup of tea after we finish this. I'll imagine it first, and then I'll go do it. I probably don't have to imagine going to the bathroom. There are certain things which, you know... Um, but maybe if I do imagine it, I could have a, a nicer experience. I don't know. M- make, make sure to take a, a nice thick book by Dickens in there the next time. Um, you know, after all, you know,
men on the toilet, eh, you know, what do they do for that? They create time. Hey, out of no time. So what are you doing in there? You know, it's like, "Ah, yeah, after another chapter. Yeah, no, I'm just having my me time." Another chapter of Narnia, I think. Wait for the legs to go numb before we do something. So, um, when one embraces the idea of frequency and vibration and all of that, then you have to think, "Well, what does that mean in practical terms?" It means that my cells, what you see, we know is

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all... Or this solid matter is a compression of th- that, those wave- waves into particles, effectively. If you compress the waves, they become matter, and if you explode the waves, they go back to being waves again. And that can even be expressed within matter because you have different types of matter. You have gases, you have where the molecules are really far apart. You have liquids where they're a bit closer together, and then you have this, you
know, where they're really close together. But they're still just molecules buzzing around with empty space between them. If we know that, and we know that, uh, things are both waves, potential, and particles when they're observed, and that the observation seems to c- compress, collapse, bring into closer alignment the vibrational molecules, things, whatever they are, um, then surely that can be going on all the time on infinite levels. So then it's

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about d- imagination. Can I imagine myself writing a novel at the same time as changing a diaper? Can I imagine getting a law degree at the same time as driving the school bus? Can I imagine A reality that's different to the reality I'm in that I would like to be in. Can I begin to feel as if I was in that reality? can my nervous system start to respond to my imagination so that even though that cake is not yet there, I can, oh, I can smell the cake Am
I more likely to end up with a cake if I engage on that level? Yeah, probably. Probably. Uh, whether I bake it or someone else bakes it. If I say, "I can't possibly have a cake right now because I'm too busy," then yeah, I probably won't get a cake. Um, and people say you can't have your cake and eat it, but what else, what else is a cake for but to be eaten? Like, what are you else gonna do? Put it on the wall? I don't know what you're gonna do with it.

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You know, put a extra... If it's a round one, try and make a spare tire out of it or something. I don't know. What, what, what's the point of a cake if you don't eat it? So, not that all cakes are necessarily that edible. so I guess since taking that to heart and being shown by the Bushmen that the human experience of shape-shifting is as old as We know the humans do it. Does that mean that horses become us sometimes? Or maybe. Do bee, bumblebees become us sometimes? Maybe. But we certainly know that in the shamanic experience, we can become
those things, so why wouldn't they? But that would just be perhaps outside of our experience 'cause they're having that experience, not us. Um, might that permeate our dreams, and we dream that we're a horse? Does that mean that a horse somewhere is having a dream about being a monkey? I don't know. Maybe. If they're as domesticated and they've got, you know... It's worth considering these things. It's worth being playful There's a danger in getting bogged down in trying to prove stuff and be convinced of things or convince other people of

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things when the evidence of our life is that the miraculous is happening all the time, and synchronicities happen all the time, and where attention goes, matter seems to manifest because it... the attention seems to compress these vibrating molecules into forms. You know, there, there's the, the very famous story about, um, Carl Jung. You probably know this one. He had a, a woman client, and he was trying to get her to sort of accept that there is this esoteric, you know, side of life and for her mental
health, and she's coming up with all the intellectual arguments why it can't be, and she's just... She's so good, she's so skillful, she's so intelligent. She, she can just knock it over the net every time. And he's thinking, "You know, how do I..." And then she finally come... But she likes to talk about her dreams, and then she's talking about th- this dream of this golden scarab beetle. And as she's talking about it, and he's at this point of despair where he's actually given up, and there's a,

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there's a knocking at the window, this little tick, tick, tick, and he said, "There's a beetle trying to crawl out the window." And in Europe, we have scarab beetles, cockchafers, that come in lots of different things. Some of them are gold, and this one was. And he opened the window and said, "There's your, there's your beetle." Um, and that was w- what brought him to the idea of synchronicities, um, when you... the imagination and vibration and frequency all come together. So if that's true, and it
seems to be, then can we, can we be intentional about it? Well, the Bushmen seem to be able to be, and, you know, shamans in the Amazon seem to be, so why not us? So w- what is it... Now, I know why not us, because the church put to the stake anyone who did anything like that for about 1,000 years. So yeah, we ripped it out of our culture, and if you want to create cannon fodder and factory fodder, it's a good idea to suppress these types of things because it makes people compliant. But they don't go

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away just 'cause they've been absent for a few generations, and they've only been absent in our culture, but they haven't been absent in other cultures. And then you have a bloke like Tesla coming along out of our culture and going, "Hey, listen, lads, like, here's the proof." So we can be intentional about it. So what is it then we wanna do? And I think where we're lucky is that there is now, with social media, a wealth of information out there now about how to do this, and
the, the person I found really helpful to me was Neville Goddard. Are you familiar with Neville Goddard? Kara: Is that the one he's, he writes a lot about like kundalini? Rupert Isaacson: Ne- Neville God... It's about, more about the imagination. So Neville Goddard was around sort of, uh, during the, the war and then after the war, sort of in Kara: is Rupert Isaacson: '40s to the '60s really. look him up on YouTube, and he, he, he interprets it very much. No, there's people

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reading his stuff and, and, uh, have recorded his old recordings and put them on YouTube. Um, so, and a lot of stuff that people talk about with law of attraction and, um, you know, Abraham Hicks and, uh, Wayne Dwyer and yeah, or, or, you know, Dispenser and all these people. They're, they're, they're all drawing on people like, like, uh, the previous generation of people like, um, Neville Goddard. And Neville Goddard, um, sees it through a, and expresses it through a New Testament or even a scriptural,
sometimes Old Testament, uh, lens, which is really interesting if you've th... you know, had to come up through all the Bible stuff. It's very nice to sort of see it reinterpreted a little bit like that. So for example, one of his things would be, um, you know the thing of turn the other cheek, which is often interpreted as, like, be a pussy, and he's saying, "No, that's not what it means at all." It's like, if your attention is on something that feels like that, turn your attention to something that

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feels, ah, and go in that direction. As long as you're looking at that... If, if you're trying to touch that hot stove and it's just going, "Ow, ow, ow," well, go away from the hot stove. And, but what do you wanna go towards? You wanna go towards the opposite of that hot stove, don't you? You want to go not towards... What's the opposite of being burned? The opposite of being burned is being nurtured. What's gonna nurture you? Go towards that. Turn your cheek, turn your gaze, turn your attention. And that's exactly what, that's exactly
what Tesla is saying. That's exactly what, Schopenhauer... Is it Schopenhauer or is it... No, Schroder, um, and his cat and, and the light bulb too. Yeah, and all of that. All of those people are saying the same thing. thank you. Kara: Uh-huh Rupert Isaacson: Um, definitely not Schopenhauer, who's a terrible misogynist. Um, but they're all saying the same thing and, um, but sometimes what's missing from it is be playful. Sometimes people feel like with law of attraction and stuff, which is a real thing, um, "Oh, I, I, I have to do this

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or some bad outcome," or, "If I don't do this right, some negative outcome," or, or, or, or... No. No, no, no, no, no, no. Back to that, uh, near-death experience with God. No, there's, there's not a bad outcome. It's just more fun if you, if you do it lightheartedly. And Kara: the heart, like the importance of bringing the heart, literally bringing the heart energy into it as you were saying Rupert Isaacson: A-
and lightness of heart means not being reverential. Re- being reverential is being heavy-hearted. Oh, if I don't kiss the ass of this icon or this person or this guru or this ceremony or ritual, I don't show reverence. No. That's not how it's done in the Kalahari, and they can die and come back and heal. No, they do it casually, light-heartedly, having a joke about your ass. That's ... And the smells it makes.

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That's, that's where it actually lies. And if you can be light-hearted, light of heart Then you remove the blockages, the heavy blockages. Now, we can't always be light of heart. Sometimes we don't feel light of heart. Then you can practice and pretend to be, and you can do things like watch a funny film. If you watch, you know, The Man with Two Brains, you can be feeling pretty shitty when you put that on, but by the time he opens the bloke's head in the... And the two
lemons fall out, and he goes, "Where is this man's brain?" You know, you've forgotten, um, how crappy you were feeling, and you're just laughing. You know? Absurdity, silliness. Silliness is so important Kara: Hmm. Rupert Isaacson: to the real expression of light heart. Just be silly. Why does everyone like Monty Python? 'Cause it's silly. What did it do? It healed people from post-war austerity. That's what Monty Python did. Everyone was very depressed after the war,

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and there were several... They were influenced by a series of comedians called The Goons, who'd all fought in World War II. Um, The Goon Show. And The Goon Show... Monty Python wouldn't exist without The Goon Show. They were, they were responding to things that were very dark by making them very silly, and, um, I think that is the key. And if you can do that, if you can be a bit silly about stuff, then suddenly the multitasking and the leading of the parallel
lives and all of that doesn't seem so daunting and so heavy. It just becomes a bit more like listening to a YouTube thing while you're walking your dog and checking your texts at the same time. Kara: Hmm. Rupert Isaacson: in two different languages. You know, if I'm, if I'm walk... If I'm texting my... Somebody while listening to you on YouTube while walking my dog while noticing that there's a different type of oak in this particular... Is I still-- I might be

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texting in German, or I might be texting in French, or I might be texting in English 'cause I've got lives in those countries, and I... You know, all of that's going on in the same time in the same moment. But I might be texting a fart joke in French, right? And I might be responding to, I might be receiving an invitation to go and have a pint in German, and I might be listening to a silly song by Monty Python
on YouTube while at the same time worrying a bit about climate change and AI. But also, I'm happy that my dog is having a good time, and oh my gosh, what? He's seen something, and, oh, there's a roe deer coming out of the... You know? All of these are concurrent realities that are very banal and everyday. They can, they can happen with endeavor that becomes Productive. So you do look up and, oh, you, you

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imagined doing a podcast at some point. Now here it is. Now it's become kind of successful. Now you'll imagine the next thing with it, And thinking about planning out the book you're gonna write and, um, also planning to... how you're gonna move your daughter to college. And, um, then another idea will hit you, and you'll imagine it and you'll implement it. And then the thing about the, the lightheartedness is that you also then don't worry
about timeframes again. So if you're always in linear time, then you feel you can't experience the joy of the outcome until it's in your bank account or whatever, uh, there on the bookshelf or whatever. But you absolutely can. Um, and again, that's why I think Neville Goddard has been really helpful for me. Um, you can imagine exactly how that would feel and take joy and feel the dopamine of anticipation, the neuroscience of it. Your, your,

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your neurons, your, your, your, your nervous system begins to respond as if... And then you imagine yourself talking at the book launch to your friends, and you imagine yourself signing that book, and you imagine... And you, and you get a certain pleasure from that feeling. And five years, 10 years later, you look up and you're actually doing it. And it might take in linear time that time, but it doesn't mean you have to suffer in between. Quite the opposite. That's the lie we were all sold with the Newtonian physics,
that you need to keep suffering until there's some sort of tangible outcome that you can take to some other judge and prove and say, "Here, you see, I'm not a fuckup because here's the thing." Rather than being set free to just feel it anyway, and then you're more likely to do it. Been my experience anyway Kara: that is beautiful. And I feel like it brings us really full circle back to, uh, because especially when you were talking about having a judge and, and being like, "Look, I did this," you know? But it's

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like going back to your NDE where it was like the whole point is, is love. Rupert Isaacson: There's no judge Kara: off. So it's what do you get pleasure out of, and, and, Rupert Isaacson: What excites you... Kara: Yeah. Rupert Isaacson: the excitement. have to... Yeah, you don't have to have written the book to feel the excitement of writing the book. And if you feel excitement while you're writing it, it'll probably be a better book, probably do better Kara: Absolutely. Well, Rupert, I'm gonna
do one of the hardest things, which is, you Rupert Isaacson: Shut me up. Kara: you know, you love someone, when you love something, you set it free. uh, I, I'm so grateful for our time Rupert Isaacson: Likewise Kara: tell people how they can find your work and connect with Rupert Isaacson: Sure. Um, it depends what they wanna do. So if people are interested in the s- what we do with special needs and the brain and autism and neurodiversity and trauma and all that stuff, that is a website called

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newtrailslearningsystems.com. Newtrailslearningsystems.com. You'll find two equine-assisted, uh, therapy- therapeutic approaches and one that you could do no horses, you could do anywhere, in your living room, in a classroom, whatever. And it'll give you sort of a user manual to your own brain and nervous system that you can use yourself. Um, if you're interested in training horses in the manner of the old Baroque classical masters, which we haven't talked about at all in
this, in this podcast, but we do this, then go to something called longridehome.com and look at that. If you want to read the books about those shamanic journeys and so on, there are three of them. There's... The first one is called The Healing Land, which is all of those early experiences in the Kalahari in Africa. The second one is The Horse Boy, which, uh, details that extraordinary journey across Mongolia with my autistic son. The third one is called The Long Ride Home,

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so it's also the name of that website. The Long Ride Home, and that is the three journeys that were done after Mongolia in Africa, in Australia, in the Navajo Reservation, in the mountains. It went on actually in the mountains of, of Romania as well, and other interesting things, yeah. Um, and All, and then we, I have, oh, I've got podcasts too. Yeah. If you wanna... So you got those three books, Healing Land, Horse Boy, and Long Ride Home. You, you can find
them on Amazon, obviously. Um, and then I have two podcasts. I have something called Equine Assisted World, which very much l- it's me interviewing people, um, about interesting stuff within equine therapy the world over. And the other one's called Live Free, Ride Free, um, which is both interesting people in the horse world, but also people who've just found a way to live self-actualized lives. And we got some really interesting people on there like Temple

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Grandin and, uh, Tim Smith. If you don't know who he is, you need to know. Craig Foster. Remember that film, My Octopus Teacher? Um, yeah, yeah, people like him. Really cool. Um, so those are really the plugs. So yeah, it's those three books, it's those websites, and it's, yeah, it's, it's those podcasts, and if people feel like, you know, engaging a bit, we'd love to see you Kara: Yeah, I highly recommend your work, your books. really amazing. They're
the types of things that I'm always sad when I finish them. You know, where I'm like, "Oh no, I only have, like, 10 more pages. Where's the rest of it?" So, um, uh, excellent, excellent writing. The, the content is amazing. The writing is brilliant, and if, uh, you know, for The Horse Boy, there's an audio version, the narration is fantastic, so can't go wrong with any of it. Rupert Isaacson: Well, thank you. Thank you so much. It's been an honor as ever

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Kara: Thank you so much for being here. I've re- Rupert Isaacson: Likewise. Thank you for letting me ramble. Being so kind and putting up with it Thank you so much for joining me for this episode of Soul Elevation. If someone in your life would be inspired or uplifted by what you heard today, please take a moment to share it with them. These are the kinds of conversations
that ripple out and elevate collective consciousness. And if you haven't yet, be sure to subscribe so you don't miss the powerful episodes ahead Your presence, energy, and support truly help amplify this mission of raising frequency and anchoring in a more awakened humanity. Thank you for your support, and I'll see you for the next episode of Soul Elevation ���