572. UFO Contact Investigated by Harvard Psychiatrist | Intruders & ET Encounters - Debbie Jordan-Kauble

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Welcome to Soul Elevation, guiding Your Ascension to New Heights. I'm your host, Kara Goodwin. I'm excited for you to hear this episode with Debbie Jordan Cobble. We talk about her fascinating contact experience from many years ago and how it changed her life dramatically in just about every way, physically, mentally, and spiritually. You will hear about her missing time, the orbs of light, the memories
that slowly began to return, and so much more. Debbie Jordan Cobble is a lifelong contact experiencer, best known as the real life inspiration behind the book and television miniseries intruders. Her extraordinary encounters began in the 1980s and were investigated by Harvard psychiatrist, Dr. John Mack. Bringing national attention to her case and to the broader conversation around extraterrestrial contact.

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Over the decades, Debbie has continued to explore the meaning of her experiences, moving from fear and confusion into empowerment. Insight and service Today, she speaks openly about the multidimensional nature of contact, the consciousness component of the phenomenon, and the personal transformation that can arise from these encounters. Through her sharing, Debbie offers us a grounded yet expansive perspective that invites us to reconsider what contact really
means and how it may be connected to human's evolution. So we'll dive in in just a moment, but first I wanna invite you to explore everything available for you@karagoodwin.com. Be sure to get my book, your Authentic Awakening to Support Your Spiritual Journey, and you'll also find a selection of free guided meditations to strengthen your spiritual side. And I wanna say a heartfelt thank you for supporting the show. Your likes, comments, shares, and subscriptions

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genuinely help this work. Reach more people when you engage. You help uplift the frequency of the content and make it easier for others to find these conversations. So go ahead and hit the like button while you're thinking about it. Alright, let's begin. Enjoy this episode. Kara: well welcome Deb. I'm so excited to talk to you today and find my fellow Hoosier here with your amazing story.
Thank you so much for coming on. Soul Elevation. Deb: You are welcome. Thanks for asking me and hello Kara: Yes. Yes. Go Hoosiers. It's a big year for, uh, for the Hoosiers. I'm a, well, I'm an an IU fan, so with our football team and, uh, you have such an incredible story, and again, I'm, I'm super tuned into it because of the proximity and the fact that I was a child growing up when,

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you know, some of this stuff was happening for you. And that has my attention as well. You were having these contact experiences and, um, I don't necessarily have the, the, I definitely don't have the vivid memories that you have, but I, again, just the, the proximity, the ages, the, you know, all of that, um, has my attention. But let's just start with your origin story, because I don't wanna dive too far
without people knowing who you are and some of the things that have happened to you, um, and the event that kind of paved the way for the work that you're doing today with ufology and so forth. Deb: Well, most people in ufology, if they still remember me and my case, they'll know me better as Kathy Davis from Bud Hopkins book. Uh, intruders The Incredible Visitation at Copley Woods. Uh, bud Hopkins was an artist.

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First and foremost, but he was also very much interested in the whole UFO thing. He had his own sighting back in 65 at, on the Cape, and I guess it just, you know, got him, sparked that interest in him. And he eventually, wrote several books on the subject. He did investigative research with several subjects, I being one of them. Uh, he had written a book called Missing Time, and I think it was written in the late, late eighties. Anyway,
I, I came across it at a library in Indy, you know, where I'm from, this old, this event of June 30th, 1983, happened on the southeast side of Indianapolis, which is, you know, is a pretty good sized city. So, Kara: is where I grew up. I grew up in Franklin Township. Deb: okay, well, um, we're, but still in the city. We were near, um, Irvington Kara: Oh, okay. Yes. Yeah. So more, more urban. Yeah. Deb: But, uh, so people are shocked.

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Copley Woods is a pseudonym, as was all of our names in Bud's book at the time. And that was to protect us and, you know, um, but anyway, it was, I was a single mom. I had moved back home with my parents I had two little boys. I think they were like three and four. um, one night when I was getting ready to go cut some patterns out for a friend of mine, I had noticed an odd light coming outta the pumphouse of the swimming pool. I noted it to my mom and she didn't seem to be
too worried about it. And I went ahead and left. And when I got back to my friend's, when I got to my friend's house, mom called and she says, I want you to come home right now. I'm like, oh my God, what's wrong with my mom? 'cause she never. scared of anything. So I went back, looked around, I didn't see anything. I was looking for burglars, not aliens or UFOs or whatever you wanna call that thing that was in the yard. was looking for burglars and uh, I had checked out dad's

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workshop behind the swimming pool. We had a big swimming pool, a big, like, we called it the cement pond, you know, it was a big Esther Williams cement, uh, you know, underground swimming pool. Real nice. So anyway, I looked all around that and I noticed that the po the, the door, the pedestrian door to the garage, it was attached to the house was open. And I thought, well, if anybody's out there snooping around, they'll, that would be where they might be. 'cause the door wasn't supposed to be open.
So I went in there and I had grabbed my dad's shotgun when I had gotten home. was not loaded at the time. Eh, but whoever's out there wouldn't have known that. I told mom I could get close enough to 'em to whack it with them before they realized they weren't gonna get shot. So because I wasn't, uh, I didn't, you know, I wasn't comfortable with them being around my kids and all. So dad kept it not loaded. But anyway, I got into the garage and I didn't see anybody, and all of a sudden I felt hot.

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felt like I was on fire and I felt real panicky sweep over me. And I thought, oh my God, I gotta get outta here. And I went to run out through that open pedestrian door and something hit me in the chest, like area here. It was like a bright, it was like being hit with ball of light. um, I know I couldn't, I know my eyes were closed. I couldn't not see it. It was so intense and bright. I couldn't move at this point, I'm in the open
doorway. I can't move. I feel like I'm starting to shake. And then it turned into a vibrating that eventually turned into like, it felt like I was coming apart, molecule by molecule, I have no idea how long I was in this state. And I was aware my, I wasn't even really, um, aware of my surroundings other than this white light was all over me and I was just vibrating. Then the vibrating stopped and the light, the intensity dropped

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off really quickly I started to become more conscious of my surroundings. And it was, at that point, I realized I wasn't in the doorway anymore. I was actually out on the cement patio, maybe 10 feet or so, and. I heard, I felt someone touch my shoulder and I heard someone say, it was unfortunate that I had felt pain, couldn't see who was talking to me. I didn't see anybody. And then I noticed movement out in the yard in front of me between where I was at the back of the
house and the swimming pool and the driveway off to the, uh, to the right. And it looked like kids. And I thought to myself, why are all these kids in my mom's backyard? And they were moving around from all different areas, and then they all kind of came together and just slid, literally not even walked, but just kind of all glided down across the yard front of me. I still couldn't move, but I could move my eyes and watch them. my vision was wrecked at this point. It was like

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when you get hit with a flashbulb and then you have Kara: Mm. Deb: in your vision. So my eyes were like splotchy, like it was also dark. Now at this point. It really wasn't dark, dark when I went out looking around. And none of this was registering to me in this, at the moment I saw these kids, there were six of them, and I said they were kids. 'cause that's how big they were to me. You know, they weren't, didn't quite look like kids, but I couldn't see a lot of detail between the
darkness in my eyes. But I could see him moving towards me and I thought, oh my God. Don't, don't come near me. But as I watched them, that's when I saw this thing in the yard. We call it a craft, lack of, I don't really know what it was or what it was supposed to do, but in retrospect, I feel like there's no way even six kids could go in that thing and fly across to Galaxy. So, I mean, it was that small. It wasn't much bigger than the Pumphouse for the swimming pool. Maybe 10 feet tall,

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maybe 10 feet in diameter at its widest point. But it was shaped like an avocado or an egg. Shape with the sitting on the big bottom down point up. And I saw a ball of white light about the size of a basketball, all just off to the, just off to the right of it from my view. um, I have no idea what it was. And at first I didn't even know whether it was all the way on the ground 'cause it seemed like it was kind of wobbly. Uh, and I felt like, have
you ever looked at something through the heat of a fire where there's no smoke and it's clear, but there's this little like distortion. And I kind of felt like that in a way, but I didn't know whether it was that or it was my eyes. And I also noted that there was like, they looked like kind of legs coming outta the middle of it, but they were really skinny and I don't feel like they could have supported the whole weight. So I have no idea what they

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were, but they were sticking out the midsection of this thing into the ground. When I saw that thing, I completely lost all track of the kids. And I don't even know where they went. I don't remember seeing them go into this thing. I don't remember seeing anything else with them. All I remember at that point is thinking in my head, oh my God, my kids. 'cause they were in the house with my mom. And I'm like, there's some weird going on here and I don't know what ha uh,
my kids, my kids, you know, mama Bear comes out immediately that same voice says to me, your children are fine. So, um, I note this, the ball of white light, it was much easier to look at than the whatever that light was that hit me in the eyes. Uh, but it, was about as high off the ground as I am tall on like 5 2, 5 3, it went down really slow and it came back up really slow. And I don't know why, but I felt it was looking at me in some way or for some reason. And then

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I heard my name and at that point it was like someone snapped their fingers and I woke up from a nightmare and everything that I was looking at disappeared the night was here. I was able to move. I still couldn't see very good. And I turned to walk toward the voice. And it was my mom who had her head sticking out the back window or the back door of the, uh, 'cause this was a, like a sandstone, tri-level house. So there was a lower patio with the basement family room
and then the garage, and then there was steps that went up to the upper porch, which was the kitchen, uh, back door. And that's where mom had her head out the door calling my name. And she says, is everything okay? And I said, yeah, everything's cool. But I'm thinking to myself. What just happened and also thinking, oh my God, I gotta get wet. I gotta get wet. I feel gross. I don't know why. So I called my friend who I had gone over to help with, uh, pattern cutting.

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And I suggested, Hey, come on over here instead. Let's, instead of doing that, let's swim. So they're like, okay, yeah, that'd be cool. So they came over to the house and, uh, her and her daughter came over, you know, 10, 15 minutes later. And we all walked back to the swimming pool. We're gonna get in the pool. All the lights were on out there around, you know, now and everything. As we're walking across the yard, her daughter steps on something in the yard that makes her foot kind of and sting a little, and then it
went numb and it, the numbness was going up her leg and her daughter was like 13 or 14, we thought maybe she'd stepped on a bee or something in the yard, but we didn't see anything. And we all got in the pool. And probably 10 minutes later we all started feeling real nauseous. My vision started acting wonky and I started seeing halos around all the lights outside and I was getting a bad headache and my eyes were hurting. So they went home and I went to bed. When I woke up the next morning, I couldn't see, my eyes were

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swollen shut, so my mom took me to the emergency room, from there I was taken to an ophthalmologist office across the street from the hospital. And the first thing he asked me is if I'd looked into the arc of a welder's torch, or if I had been somewhere where there'd been a complete eclipse and had looked at it. I'm like, no. At that point I had not. Fully remembered the light and the kids and everything. 'cause that had been like, wiped from my mind. I could remember was I
woke up and my eyes hurt. I felt weird. I felt like something weird happened. I couldn't, I couldn't figure out what happened. But something was wrong, something wasn't right. So, um, they treated my eyes and from that point on, my eyes were never right again. I started wearing glasses. I went very farsighted and I'd never hid glasses before. that had been out there with me that night, within, uh, six or eight weeks, she had to be put to sleep because she got very sick and

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was dying. And, um, This Kara: up. Deb: on June 30th, of course, 4th of July weekend came up quickly and the whole family came over to swim and everything. all the little kids ran outside and my nephew come back in and he said, grandma, what's wrong with your yard? And my mom said, I don't know what you're talking about. 'cause mom, I or my dad had not even Kara: Okay. the back after that night. So we all went out there and there was that big mark. It was a eight foot diameter circle.
Deb: It was this long streak, all the way across the backyard. It was like 49 feet long, all the way across from the driveway down to the street, about two feet wide. All the grass had turned brownish gray and laid down. Just laid over. And the dirt was rock hard underneath. And my mom, for whatever reason, when she looked at it, she goes, oh, that's where the UFO landed the other night. This was the first time I'd heard of that. And I looked at her and I thought, what is wrong with

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you? Because she's laughing, like almost a nervous laugh, and the kids are giggling and I'm not laughing. And then when I looked back at the yard, everything started coming back. Kara: wow. Deb: The memories of that night, even of other weird things that had happened for years. The, I, it was like I had a memory dump come back in within, within that next week or so, and I had picked up missing time a few months prior because we'd had weird stuff happen. And my family, before I thought everyone
had, I didn't think it was a big deal. My older sister had an experience in 1965 in the parking lot of the Holy Spirit Catholic Church on 10th and Franklin. You know that one? Yes. Kara: Wow. Deb: I mean, and I'd heard her talk about it for years and I just assumed everybody had stuff like that happen. I didn't know any different. So anyway, I had picked up that book Missing Time a few months before this happened in June, I couldn't finish it. Every time I tried to read it, I'd have panic

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attacks and be all crazy. And mom's like, take that book back to the library. We can't afford to keep going to the emergency room if you think you're having a heart attack. So, uh, but I knew, I remembered in the book that there was an address in the back where he could write to the guy who wrote this if he thought you'd had this kind of experience. Well, I wasn't sure about myself, but I knew my sister had in 65. But something about of the things that I was remembering was nagging at me.
And I had already started trying to find the prosaic explanations for it, as did my dad and my uncle Jim, and my cousins and all, we were all trying to figure out what all could have happened that would cause all this, because not only was there the mark in the yard, my dad had a big ham radio tower out near the area, and it had coax cables that ran into the house near the mark the cables themselves. The outside part was fine, but all the metal inside all melted together in a big clump.

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And the transformer that was above the pumphouse of the swimming pool where the first, the light first appeared, exploded and had to be replaced about a week Kara: Oh my gosh. weird things that happened, as well as just the mark and the yard and mom and I, you know, out there and me seeing that thing and those little kids. So I thought, okay, I'll write this guy and he can tell me not what it is. You know what I mean? And then
I'll feel better because I'm thinking this cannot be what I think. It's, that just makes no sense. It is too crazy. And just, I can't, I can't lose my mind. I have two kids that need me to be sane so I can raise them and I want them to have a normal life. Deb: So I wrote this guy, and I don't know, a few a month or so later, he calls. He spoke to me, he spoke to my mom, he spoke to my sister, and he decided that he wanted to

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do an investigation. He wanted to be thorough with this whole thing. And then, uh, family, it was a family thing. So, and we talked about it and we all agreed. made the first trip to New York I met him immediately. He took me to a psychiatrist's office there to have me looked over to make sure I wasn't crazy. um, then the investigation began. He, uh, he came to Indiana several times in, interviewed my whole family, all of my friends. And then he walked around knocking on doors in
the neighborhood, and he found two independent witnesses to that Kara: Wow. Who had seen it? Wow. Deb: had seen something that they couldn't explain. was the next to us, and then one was across the street from us. And these lots were big and they were separated by small areas of wooded, you know, areas. So, And we didn't even realize that they, 'cause we didn't talk to our neighbors that much and we didn't realize they'd seen anything. And mom was like, when Bud said, well I gotta go

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knock on some doors. And sh mom was like, oh my God, the neighbors are gonna think we're crazy. it turns out they didn't think we were crazy. They saw something weird and they didn't know who to Kara: Oh Deb: anyway, there was a two and a half year investigation, I guess. I went to New York a few times. He came here a few times. I had to sell my washer and dryer to get my bus ticket to go to New Kara: wow. Deb: people have to remember, this was 43 years ago. We didn't have the internet, we didn't have cell phones.
This whole investigation had to be done through the mail. But I would write him letters and tell him things I was remembering strategically placed phone calls, you know, after 6:00 PM on Saturday when it was cheaper. 'cause neither one of us had a lot, I had no money. And he wasn't rich by any means. a lot of donations to help pay for the medical testing that I had. I had medical testing, I had psychological testing, all done there in New York at that hospital in New York. I think it's Columbia, but I'm not sure.

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I can't remember 'cause it'd been Kara: Yeah, Deb: Um, and I had, uh, voice stress test done here in Indiana by a man who Bud found, and it was done blind. In other words, he didn't know me or bud or anything about the subject or the questions that he was gonna be asking. Kara: so what's a voice stress test? Deb: it's like a lie detector Kara: Okay. Deb: it's it. And I did have like little. You know, sensors
on my, I think my fingers and stuff, but it also hears your voice when you talk. And so, uh, the end of the day, the guy told Bud, he goes, I cannot tell you a fact that this woman saw and aliens in her parents' backyard. But I can tell you for a fact that she believes that she did. And Bud said, that's all I needed to know. I mean, all of that. And then he did soil sampling, soil sample, me, testing of the

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backyard soil. And I got the results of those. I still have that, you know, they had to, I, they had to bake it at, I think it was 800 degrees for 12 hours to get the soil to even remotely be as as the soil of the mark. And they still couldn't replicate. The fact that the soil completely repelled water. You could put a chunk of this in a glass of water for 24 hours and you would just have a rock the next day. that
fall when it started to snow, snow melted off of this mark in the yard for the first year. Kara: Wow. Deb: time it would start to snow within 30 minutes or so, if you look out the backyard it'd be that mark. the snow would just melt right off of it and just the moisture would roll right off of Kara: And did they find any sort of chemical component that was unusual in the soil? Deb: Not that I'm Kara: Mm-hmm. Deb: I

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dunno. thing Kara: Wow. Deb: of basically is what they wrote in there. I don't think they found anything extraordinarily. weird. recall bud saying something about there not being any kind of like microbial life. And I'm like, there's no, there was no germs or bacteria or anything like that. Of course, no bugs. we noted that not only would the dog not walk on it, but would Kara: Oh Deb: the yard to o other animals, like the squirrels that my dad fed, and birds and everything. None of
the animals, the wild animals would avoid that area. They would not walk on Kara: wow. Deb: Even the squirrels would walk, run all the way around the whole 49 foot length of the streak and then round and back up to the back door to get their peanut butter sandwich. My dad, he had a pet squirrel named Merle that to Kara: my gosh. Deb: baked peanut butter sandwiches for. Kara: bless him. Deb: but anyway, um, and then, you know, as the investigation was starting, I was having a nervous

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breakdown because I was starting to remember all kinds of things that had happened in the past I had just kind of put away and it was all the dots were starting to connect to me I didn't like what I was seeing. I couldn't, I couldn't accept that this could possibly be real. This is just too crazy. And, um, I remember the first time Bud came, showed me a drawing of a wo that a woman in Ohio had done of this alien
face that I had drawn for Bud and that that wasn't from the June 30 83 memories. That was from in 78 when I was first married. And these two little guys came in my bedroom with the black box, this big heads with the big black eyes. And I had done a drawing for him them. And, uh, put this drawing down on mom's kitchen table and he said, look at this. And my first instinct was, why are you showing me my drawing?

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Kara: Oh wow. Deb: it was so much like what I had drawn for him that I thought it was mine. At first glance, the shading was identical. The shape of the head, the shape of the eyes, the shape of the brow ridge, everything. And he said, that's not yours. said, who is it? was a woman in Ohio who had encountered these beings around the same time I had. And then I noted her name and I'm like, oh my God, that is not mine. Bud
showed that to me, thinking that it would, I believe, give me some, you know, comfort or confirmation that I wasn't crazy, that other people were seeing this. In my mind, I was thinking, was still thinking, I was still telling myself a lot of this stuff was just Kara: Mm-hmm. Deb: couldn't, I couldn't, accept that it really could happen. But then when I saw this woman's drawing in my mind I'm thinking, oh my God. Either

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she got into my head and saw what I saw in my head and then drew whatever she drew or she saw the same thing I did because I don't know this woman and I've never met her. And this was back before all of this stuff was widely seen anywhere, you know what I mean? And it, and it me like a ton of bricks. This woman saw the same thing I did, which means weren't, I wasn't dreaming any of this, know? And I got, so, I guess they call it
ontological shock. That's when it really kicked in and hit me hard. And I literally ran upstairs and puked. Kara: Oh wow. Deb: I couldn't hardly breathe on a mo major panic attack. struggling with anxiety. psychiatrist in New York diagnosed me with PTSD. I didn't have anything in my life that would warrant PTSD and that's not something we you even talked about back in the eighties. You know what I mean? I, I didn't know what it meant. I

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had no idea. Kara: Yeah. Deb: Um, they said, I wa the test. I always tell people, I, they, I'm not crazy. They tested me. I, I wasn't schizophrenic. I wasn't delusional. I didn't have any, any, any, Kara: Mm-hmm. Deb: ptsd, TSD and the anxiety and, um, that I was above average intelligence. And, but not, I was not like creatively, you know, overactive or whatever. I can't remember the word they used. But, so basically I just, you know, had
something really traumatic happen to me that scared the crap out of me, and this is how I'm responding to it. struggled for several years. I started having these dreams and visions of things. That would not leave me alone, and I would have to literally write them down or draw them down, draw the symbols that I was seeing in my head. They would wake me up out of a sound sleep, and I couldn't go back to sleep till I drew it or wrote it down.

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Kara: Did they feel like they were antagonistic or was it just your fear and, and the un the unknown that was so frightening? Deb: It was Kara: Mm-hmm. Deb: In retrospect, I mean, I, was a 25-year-old and I was timid. I was nothing like I am now. And, um, I didn't understand things and things I don't understand scare me. But one of the things that I do do is that when I am faced with things that I'm afraid of, I try to educate myself about as much
as I can on all of it. So that's why eventually I became a muon investigator for State of Indiana for many years because I felt like if I learned more about the subject, I wouldn't be as afraid. Okay. And also I had, uh, started when I was getting these, they call 'em downloads now, but we didn't have that word back then. Kara: Well, that word didn't exist generally because the computers were, you know, we didn't have like PCs and yeah. Deb: I

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didn't, I I, I was just thoughts and images in my head. I didn't know whether they were coming from me or from somewhere else, but I knew if I didn't take them outta my head and put them somewhere where they wouldn't get lost, they would not leave me alone. once I drew them, once I drew the pictures or wrote down the words or the thoughts, it would go away and I'd be fine. was always so weird. And that's how I ended up with two books. 'cause I have, uh, stuff that I remembered, you know? But, um, and that went on for a
years and it was, uh, frustrating and annoying and I felt like I was going crazy. I thought I was having a nervous breakdown sometimes. Thank God for my parents who were supportive and my mom was out there. That night and my parents had had their own strange things happen, which I didn't really know very much about till after all this came out. Kara: your mom made that comment about when, um, your nephew was talking about what's in the backyard, and your mom said, well, that's where the UFO was, and she started laughing.

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Was that, did, did she just say that and she didn't even know why she said it? Or was she like, actually there was a UFO ha. You know, I don't know how to tell you this, but Deb: She never really Kara: Okay. Deb: and that's the funny part. I mean, the way she, she giggled it's, it seemed to me to be like a, a nervous laugh. Right. but it was like maybe a week later. And she was at the kitchen window like I had been that night and she was doing dishes and she turned around and looked
at me and she's like, you know what? I just remembered why I called you home that night other night. And I'm like, okay, why? She said, I was standing here doing this, what I'm doing right now. And she goes, I saw a ball of light around the bird feeder. 'cause there was a big bird feeder out in front of the window, which would be pretty close to where the mark in the yard was. She said, this ball of light was about the size of a basketball, which is what I remembered seeing next to the

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thing. she said, at first I thought it was your father coming home. My dad worked second shift at Ford. And she said, at first I thought it was your dad coming home down the side drive. You Kara: In the headlights. Yeah. Deb: but nobody passed. I didn't see anybody. And then she thought. Well, maybe it's a flashlight, maybe there is out Hmm. and she looked, tried to see if she could see somebody or see a flashlight beam or something, but she didn't, she stood there
mesmerized at this ball of light that was just enveloping this bird feeder and illuminating it from nowhere. And she said it got smaller and smaller and smaller and then it disappeared. And she said, the moment it disappeared, the thought came in my head to call you and tell you to come home right now. I'm Oh damn. wow. it's a good thing you didn't remember. 'cause I don't know if I'd had the nerve come back Kara: Yeah. You're on your own mom. Deb: I know so, so

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when she said, oh, that's where the UFO landed, honestly, I don't know whether she actually saw a UFO out there and just, you know, as blocked it out consciously. she sure enough did blurt that out and. was like, what? Kara: Yeah. Deb: So uh, so anyway, the case, you know, he, he investigated it for two and a half good years. Got a lot of good data and information, even though he was an artist, left no stone unturned. He
did everything he could humanly do and he paid for a lot of it. Or he got people to donate money or time for like the medical testing and things like that. Kara: Wow, Deb: um, he finally came to the family and he said, look, that I think this is an important case. We have trace, you know, okay. That Mark in the yard lasted several Kara: wow. Deb: And he said, we have that, we have independent witnesses. We have you and

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your mom. Then we had other things happen after that. You know, another sighting that following April with mom and I both, um. Just all kinds of stuff. And he goes, this is is a, this is an important case. And we had paranormal activity ramp up in the house. And then there was all these changes within me intellectually, um, spiritually, and even on a consciousness level. You know, they, this all started kicking in I was remembering these that I
was being told from somewhere, writing down things. and he goes, I think this is a really important case and I wanna tell the world about it, and I wanna write a book. And my family and I both, at first were like, I don't think so. That wasn't all, that wasn't the point of this whole thing. The point was getting some help and trying to figure it out and explain it, you know, and he eventually convinced us that it would help, you know. Lots of other

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people. He showed us letters that he had gotten from people from all over the world. And it's like, oh my God. I mean this actually, these people are telling the same stories we're, we've got, Kara: Mm-hmm. Deb: crazy. So finally, as a family of all the great, okay, you can write the book one condition, you know, we need to protect ourselves and our children. We'd already had some weirdos coming to the house, taking pictures of the mark and the backyard and, and even had somebody come in with a suit, and, and a big suitcase and take
stuff out of our, out of the mark. We weren't even home and we didn't even know about it except for our neighbor called us and Kara: Like a, like a man in black type of thing. Deb: She, she said he was wearing a dark suit and he had a big black suitcase, and he was in the backyard missing it around at that mark. were you Kara: What? Deb: somebody? To come. It was one of the women that had actually Kara: Mm. Deb: She goes and she goes, were you expecting somebody who was that? 'cause like she was just being nippy, you know? And we're like,

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we weren't expecting anybody out. We don't know who that Kara: Wow. Deb: had things like that happening before the book was even written. So we anticipated it would be not good. And I especially wanted to protect my children who in that home. Kara: Yeah. Deb: So he gave us all pseudonyms. He made a pseudonym of the actual And, um, then the, then the book got published and you know, the rest is UFO history, I guess.
Kara: Well, so you shared, thank you for talking through all of that. It's a fascinating, fascinating experience and you were talking about as you, um, as you started to come to grips with everything that was happening and, and as it kind of settled in, you started having memories that things had actually been happening before this, but you weren't sure if they were dreams or if they were just imagination or, or

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whatever. Um, but as you worked with, as you worked through processing this and, um, going deeper into what happened and what, start to understand that some of those things that maybe you thought were dreams were encounters and they were the same group or. Deb: yeah. Well, it was always the same. guys, uh, except there were a few times when I had encounters with people that looked like humans. Very beautiful humans,
but humans, you know, tall, slender, blonde, beautiful people. but for instance, when I was 16, I had, and, but see, and I must preface this with that I was not, most all these things that I tried to think to convince myself were dreams, I was not alone. There were other people involved, so, and Bud spoke to them and I'm like, damn. Like, uh, when I was 16, right before I out I was pregnant, when I was like 17 and a,

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and me and my girlfriend and another friend of hers were out driving around at night out, way out on the far east side, out near like Lawrence off the pen Pike right now. It's all built up. Back then it was all just. Kara: Mm-hmm. Deb: were actually spying on her boyfriend who lived out, wanted to make sure he was where he was, said he was gonna be. Right. You know, a year older. She had a driver's license. I was just 16. I didn't really have a car yet, but, um, so we're out driving around
and I noticed this light in the sky acting all crazy. And I said to that, to my friend Dee and her, her friend in the backseat. I'm like, oh look, there's UFO. And I kind of giggled, sort of nodding on and Kara: Yeah. Deb: I'm like, look, there's a UFO in this guy. And Dee's like, oh man, that is weird. You know? And the girl in the backseat, she had to be, uh, an experiencer because she flipped out. She immediately panicked and said, oh my God, don't say that. And she down behind the seat.

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Kara: Wow. Deb: behind the seats in the car and was crying. thought, what is wrong with your friend Doris? She's acting kind of weird. and then the next thing I remember it's, oh my God, we've gotta hurry up and get home because your parents are about to get up. My mom thought I was spending the night at her house, And, uh, instead we were out running around being crazy teenagers in the car. And I would've been in so much trouble, but,
uh, I, she's like, we gotta hurry up and get home. My parents' alarm's gonna go off in a minute. And if we get up, if they get up and we're not home, they're, we're gonna be in big trouble. So we got to her house, we climbed in her bedroom window, and we got in bed with the cupboard over us just when we heard her parents' alarm Kara: my gosh. Deb: So I'll, and I remember after she said that, and we were trying to hurry up and get home. I

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remember her saying, she just looked over at me, kind of weird. And it was a very silent car ride back to her house. And she said, I guess time flies when you're having fun, right? And I'm like, yeah, I guess that was the only thing that was said. It was just weird that we just lost all that time. And I started having dreams of that night where I was, we were in the car and saw the light in the sky, and then all of a sudden our car was like enveloped in this black smoke. And I felt like someone was pulling me out of the car by my legs and I
was trying to fight them, but I couldn't see them. So I tell this to bud years and years later when he comes to do the investigation, he goes, well, that's weird. He goes, is there any way we can talk to the other girls that were in the car with you? And I said, well, I don't know about the one in the backseat, but I, I can get you in touch with the driver. We hadn't talked in years, mind you, her and I. After that, we just kind of drifted apart, really. I mean, but we're still friends. We just life, you know. I got a hold of her and I said,

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told her what was going on and this fellow would like to speak to her. And she's like, yeah, sure, come on over. So we went to her house. I took her him over to meet her. So he says, tell me about that night. And she says, well, you know, and he said, Deb saw the light in the sky. And she's like, what do you wanna know about the light in the sky or the light on the ground? And I looked at her and I looked at Bud and I'm like, I don't remember a light on the ground. She said, oh yeah, there was a light on the ground. That's why I pulled over. And I'm like, what?
You pulled? I mean, I had completely blacked all this out. And she remembered even more than I did. So she talked to him and he, he asked her, you know, there was a still, there was still a lot of. What she didn't also remember, her mind kind of went blank, and then she went to that point where she just said, well, I guess time flies when you're having fun. We gotta hurry up and get home. And he goes, would you ever be interested in doing any, you know, regression or hypnotherapy to try to remember it? She's like, no, I'm good. She said, I completely, she says,

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I've gotten along just fine all these years without knowing and I really don't wanna know. And, and he's like, that's fine. I respect that. You know? But the point was, that something that I was trying to convince myself never happened. Actually, I didn't even remember as much as the other people that were with me remembered. You know what I'm Kara: Yeah. Deb: just that's the way a lot of the experiences that I had throughout my life happened. And then I would just put them aside in my head. I have this like little shelf
in my brain of Kara: Mm-hmm. Deb: and if I couldn't figure it out, it would just tuck it up there away and just go on. Because, you know, what else was I supposed to do? I have to live here. I have to function every day, Kara: Right. Deb: So dug into that. Bud got into a lot of that and helped me remember, by mere fact, you know, talking to Dee. And then after that I started remembering a little bit more. When he would have, he would come to the house and he would sit there and mom, dad, and my siblings. a friend of mine or

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two would be all sitting around the table. We'd get to talk and, and all of a sudden I'd remember something that I hadn't thought of in 40 years, Kara: Wow. Deb: I'd say, mom, do you remember that? She's like, oh, yeah, yeah, I remember that. she would finish the story. Like I remembered when I was six or seven, maybe older sister had taken me to Detroit. I had forgotten all about this. I mean, I, it just wasn't anything I thought about. But Mom, Bud was there
and we were talking about it, I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe I forgot this when I was up in Detroit with my sister Kathy. And I became missing all day long, and the police were out looking for me as well as my sister and the people whose house we were staying at. And I had this encounter with this little boy with big brown eyes who wanted me to come and play with his toys. So I remember going in this weird house and room in this weird house was like

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ginormously bigger than the house. Once I got in there, all white there was not much in there, there was some stuff on the ground on the, and I sat down on the floor and something poked me in the leg. I got scared, tried to run out the door. The little boy started to chase me, begged me to stay, and then his mother came about from somewhere. What? I, in my mind, I thought it was his mom, was bicker and she was mad. And she says, what is she doing here? She does not belong here.
Bam. I get shoved out the door. I don't even know who touched me. I, I didn't see anybody touch me. It was just like some force just pushed me. There's my sister standing at the end of the sidewalk at me and I thought, and all I can remember is thinking, oh, thank God this is my sister. I'm, everything's fine. I ran up to her and I grabbed her hand and she walked me back to wherever I was supposed to be. And all the police were there. My sister's the one who actually found me,

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interestingly enough, my sister, who also is experiencer like me, you know? So, I mean, all these kind of things started coming up, these memories. And when we told Bud about this, he goes, well, can I talk to the people in Detroit? And Kathy's like, yeah, I got her. I can still call. By the end of the day, he was talking to the woman whose house we had visited when I was little. And she's like, yeah, that girl's missing all day long. She scared the hell out of us. We called the police and everything.
So I keep having all this confirmation of things that away, Kara: yeah. Deb: And it just involves so many people over such a great amount of Kara: Right. Yeah. Deb: and I do wanna say, before I forget, you know, that night in 80, in 83 when it, the light hit me and it messed my eyes up so badly, and my eyes were so bad. By the time I was in my late thirties, I was diagnosed with cataracts and macular degeneration. Kara: Wow. Deb: by the time I just, I think, hit, hit 50, maybe it was just like 40 some

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late forties. I ended up having to have both my lenses replaced. And, uh, I, my macular degeneration right now is dry, but I'm having, I'm gonna get some, a new pro procedure done. Hopefully that will slow it down. And during the times that I was writing down things back in the eighties and nineties, I was drawing symbols and things that turned up 25 years
later in either in, in, like I drew a symbol, you know what the wifi symbol on your phone Kara: Yeah. Deb: I drew that symbol in 1989 I saw it on a wall somewhere Kara: Wow. Deb: it. And yeah, isn't Kara: Yeah. Deb: uh, I drew, I wrote things down that I'm now seeing, like I, I was told somehow that light could be used to heal. And then here recently, I've

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just been to this eye specialist, and they're gonna do, they're gonna use LED lights to try to heal my macular degeneration. But I wrote down that stuff in the eighties. I wrote down, uh, that light could be bent and used to travel. I mean, I wrote all kinds of weird stuff that came in my head. Kara: Wow. Deb: of symbols and shapes and stuff, and it was all published back in the eighties and, and early nineties. So I was like, know. It's already, it's established.
You know what I Kara: Yeah. Deb: I don't know what it means or where it came from. And another thing that it, that kept being pounded into me is, you know, that June 30 83 and said it was scary and painful and I was traumatized by it, something kept coming back in me and saying, don't be afraid because fear will only slow down your process. Don't be afraid. And eventually, I, I learned to not be afraid. And that's when I got involved in MoveOn. And then I also got

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involved in paranormal research that became amazing. And I was told by my paranormal friends that I was, they called me the antenna I Kara: Oh, Deb: up the best EVPs. Kara: EVPs. What does that stand for? Deb: EE electronic voice Kara: Oh. Deb: disembodied Kara: Oh wow. Deb: can't hear them your ears, but your electronic equipment will. Kara: pick 'em up. Deb: Yeah, I've gotten some phenomenal Kara: wow. Deb: And then
I had an epiphany back in the nineties when I recorded an EVP with my nephew and the, it was of an old man's voice and he said, are the spirits listening? And I looked at my nephew and I'm like, oh my God, we're the spirits somewhere else? And someone's listening to us. Kara: Oh Deb: brain just went, poof. And that's about when I started getting interested in quantum and multiverse things. And I began to realize that

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at least some of my encounters were probably not in the way that we understand it, but more extra or Kara: Hmm. Deb: dimensional. then I, I had a vision one time big blob of bubbles. I was playing with my kids bubble wand, right? And swooped that dude up and it made a big blob of bubbles that just kind of hung in the air in front of me. And it was like time stopped in that moment. And I heard this voice say, you see that
those are universes. You see where they touch and they become one for a moment. That's where you can pass through, but you have to be fast because it's fleeting. They move Kara: Oh, Deb: all the time. Kara: wow. Deb: I mean, yeah. So I mean, and I'm like a, I got a high school diploma and a beauty school certificate. Why am I thinking about stuff like this and why is this kind of stuff being put in my head? Kara: Wow. It's

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amazing. Deb: weird, Kara: amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I've really loved hearing your story, and again, the fact that. We share this geography is interesting because then I look back on my life and like I said, I don't have the, the, um, solid experiences like you have. I have like memory, like fleeting, fleeting memories or dreams, kind of what you've talked about. But, um, but it's funny to have it the context of your experience. So
for example, one thing that comes to mind, it's, it's nothing compared to what you shared, but I remember being outside one night, uh, on a summer night. Don't remember the date. May, it might have actually been the solar or the summer, um, solstice. I, I vaguely kind of remember. It might have been the first day of summer, but it was nighttime and I was out on our cul-de-sac with my two friends neighbors and we saw lights in the sky and

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they were north of us. So it was like. Low, like low in the sky, like not straight up. And they were, it wasn't like concentrated light, like the way that you might see, uh, lights from a UFO, it was just weird light that was almost like, um, like just bigger colors of light. And I remember I, we were like, what is that? What is that? Oh my God, look at those colors. Look at the sky. And I went inside and I told my mom and I'm like, come and look at these lights. Come and look at these lights.
And, and I think by then, I can't even remember if we could actually still see them, I think. I don't think she ever saw them, but I was like, well, what would it have been? And she's like, well, maybe it was the Northern Lights. And I'm like, well, what are the Northern Lights? You know? And, and um, she explained what it was and I'm like, well, may you know. So I just always thought, oh, we saw the Northern Lights once in Indianapolis, you know, but it's interesting that that would've been north.

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Like I remember the direction. I remember like looking and I know that was north. So that would've been kind of where you were, you know, because you were, we were the same area of the city, but I was just further south than you were. Um. And as I've gotten older and I've understood what the Northern Lights is like, it would've been a big deal to see them in Indiana. You know, we would've heard about that, I think. Um, and that, you know, what the Northern Lights are don't
match what I saw. But, um, but I don't have, I don't remember there being like missing time. There wasn't dramatic missing time and I don't remember the lights ever getting closer or anything like that, but, um, but there's so much that sometimes you don't know until later. And, and that makes me think about this dream that I had in, um, I think I was about five and at that time we were living in Greenwood, so this was further south and, uh, but still in the metro area.

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But, um, and I was so sure that I had been. Taken underground in the, in the entry point was the hedge around my elementary school. And I just knew, like there was an entry point in there and I went, I had gone into the earth and I was there with some beings that were, you know, I don't remember if there were like humans there too, but I was just there with some like beings that I didn't know
who they were. And there it was, like, there weren't, um, defined walls, you know, it was, but there was almost like an am like a small amphitheater kind of type of se feeling to it. And that's really all that I can remember now. But I, I know that at recess after that happened, I went to where I knew that that entryway, I mean, I really thought it had happened. And I was like, well, here's

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where you go in and I couldn't find it. And I was like, where is it? Where is it? So I, I was confused by that because I knew it wasn't a dream. And then over time it's been like, gosh, that dream was so vivid, but it must have just been a dream because the older I got, the less sense that it made. I, it still doesn't really make sense, but, um, but a lot of the things that you're
saying then take me back to when I was a kid, which was more, you know, the eight, this was more the eighties time, , so it's really interesting how these memories, or even if they're not fully formed memories anymore, like how they can come up as you go through your journey and start to explore yourself in a, in a bigger way. I don't know. It's so fascinating. Deb: Yep. It is. Life

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is so, life is not, there's so much more to life than what you just see with your Kara: Yeah, yeah. Deb: more all around Kara: Right. So you've talked a little bit about how the experience for you was scary and because it was so unknown and how that was coming from within you rather than actually from what you were encountering because you kept being reassured, like,
don't be afraid, we're sorry that you were hurt by this and so forth. What has your understanding, how has it evolved over time of what you understand to have happened with your contact experiences? Deb: No, I, I have asked myself these questions a million times in the last 60 years, know, since I've been aware. Um, and it's like, I don't know whether I was born

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different or this way, or if my experiences change something. don't know. Um, to say that I got a new wire harness up here back in 83 when that light hit me. It changed something up here, you know, uh, it flipped a switch on. It made me aware of. Things around me that I wasn't, I wasn't aware of. Like, I went through life with blinders on and all of a sudden they've been removed and I can see, um,
things in me started to change. I started to be able to sense things. I, I became more empathic and, um, uh, just aware of my, my potential, my abilities. that I'm different than anyone else, it's just that I've become aware of it. And everybody else, you've forgotten who you are or what you can do, but I've remembered somebody's made me remember, you know, somehow I've remembered, I don't know. And,

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um, it, it, I got over my fear because I felt like, know, any damage or anything frightening to me was. from me. The fright, the frightening part came from me that I, I was afraid of something that I didn't understand, and the damage was inadvertent. I don't believe that it was malicious. It was, it was a, a side effect, an inadvertent side effect of what
was happening maybe wasn't known to be, you know, gonna happen at the time. Uh, it was, and, and I feel like now I'm at my age, if there was something, I was dealing with something if the world was dealing with something malevolent, they would be able to do whatever they want with us a long time ago when we are still here. whatever, they're, they're not

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interfering, Kara: Mm-hmm. Deb: they might be watching that they might be coaching a few. People to help coach other people. I feel like, you know, early on when I started to, I say wake up or realize the bigger picture, felt like I had a job to do. I had something, there was a reason I'm here. There was a reason that this happened to me and part
of that I figured, I feel like I've figured out anyway, is that I'm supposed to let other people know they're okay, that they're gonna get through this and they're gonna come out better. The other side, the way I to explain it to people is like, I feel like I'm a little pebble in a pocket of a slingshot. And the more that I get pulled down, you

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know, with events and things that happen to me. Related to this stuff and even other stuff in life that's traumatic. 'cause I've been through lots of traumatic stuff, but the farther down I get pulled when whoever's pulling this pocket down, let's go. The higher up I can go see. And Bud said to me one time after I wrote my book with my sister, you know, people are often surprised that my attitude about things is a
little different than Bud's. Bud was coming at the entire thing with me and my family from the point of view of an investigator a man who was very compassionate and saw how messed up and traumatized I was and has seen thousands of people in the same condition. You know, and it affects him. Uh, but. When I wrote the book Abducted with my sister, I wanted to tell my story as the experiencer and how my point of view from

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the whole thing and how I assimilated it, you know, which is different. And Bud wrote the forward for that book. And I know he cringed when he read some of the stuff that he probably considered a bit woo for him. But, and nevertheless, he let me be who I am destined to be, right? And, and, but he did say to me, don't you ever give them for what you
did. Kara: Hmm. Deb: understood his point of view and I understood why he said that. needs to understand I could not have reached I have been without them. Kara: Mm. Deb: contact, I Kara: Yeah. Deb: have reached that. Far, you know what I Kara: Yeah. Deb: He, couldn't know that as a researcher, I mean, but an, but a, an experiencer would understand

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that much more, you know? So I'm not giving them credit for what I work, I've done intellectually and spiritually and everything else. But without that experience, I couldn't have attained that I'm at. Kara: Yeah. Deb: just that simple. Kara: Well, and it, it is fascinating though how you've been able to work with the trauma, because I don't know that, I know that a lot of people would get stuck at. Oh my God. I had this, it was terrifying,
and I had these ill effects from it, and my dog couldn't handle it, you know, and, and all of these things, and they could absolutely get stuck at that, so, Deb: and Kara: yeah. Deb: mean when I say things, I don't mean to diminish people that are still Kara: Right. Yeah. Deb: and I understand their fear and their trauma 'cause I Kara: Mm-hmm. Deb: it very well. But also, I also understood this is, and this is probably where I get a little

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controversial and I might make some people mad, but it is what it is. I mean, of the reasons I was able to overcome a lot of it, and you have to remember, I, and not only did I have all this trauma and stuff. I mean, I witnessed my late husband commit suicide. had a tornado drop a whole house on me and lost everything I owned. I have wi, I've been in the presence when my mother died, and just like all kinds of different traumatic events that people go
through, probably more than some people ever have in one lifetime. I've already had and yet, and I go to therapy and I also have EMDR therapy for PTSD and anxiety as well. But I reached out for help. But my point is I chose not be a victim. I chose to not think of myself as, oh, poor me. Don't get me wrong, I don't think people think this, but I know for my, I could speak for my own self how I could get Kara: Yeah. Deb: I could feel like I'm, I'm, they're

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doing this to me. doing this to me, and I can't control, I can't fight it. I cannot always control what happens to me in my life, but I am always in control of how I choose to respond to it. Kara: Right. Deb: And I choose to respond to it In my power. I choose, I chose to educate myself on all things weird and u Ffo wise and, you know, other, and other
areas, you know, and psychology and stuff, and humanity. And, I mean, I, I chose Educate myself and make myself more knowledgeable, because to me, knowledge is power. And I take my power back. I don't give my power to anybody else. don't. And therefore, like I, in doing that, I've lost a lot of Kara: Mm-hmm. Deb: a lot of my fear was based in being powerless,

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feeling Kara: Mm-hmm. Deb: And I took that Kara: Wow. Right. Deb: anybody can all you have to do is believe. All you have to do is have faith in yourself. You know, Kara: I love that. Deb: from a religious point of view, I used to be, I was raised as a Christian, you know, my dad was a Catholic, mom was Pentecost. I don't have any, I, I don't attach myself to any religion at this point in my life. But I also believe that, um,
know, I have the power to do it is that I need to do. And I, don't know, it's just. It's hard to put into words. I'm not the greatest person for words. Like I said, I have a high school diploma and beauty single certificate. I'm not the smartest person on the planet, but I know what I, I've done and I know that it works for me and I believe that it can work for other people as well. know, and people in, in the situation that

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I'm in, that I was in, you know, with all the weird stuff going on and everything. It's the same thing for like, when my husband died, the grief I found for myself and I think it helps a lot of other people to, to reach out to people. 43 years ago, I didn't have hardly anybody to talk to. Fortunately I had my family and friends around me 'cause, and they were supportive because they experienced it too, which is a lot of people in my position
did not have. And so one of my things now is. try to be there for all those folks out there that, that are still like that, that don't have the support, I want them to know that they can be okay. They can live with this, they'll be all right. And they're, they're not alone and they're seen and, know, and so that's why I do what I do, mostly behind the scenes with Zero. um, you know, just talking to people. My website, people write to me and I,

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I'm just, sometimes you just need somebody to listen to you non-judgmentally. And I'm, I'm not gonna judge you. I'm the last person on earth that should judge anybody's experience. 'cause I've had some wild stuff. But, uh, want people to know that there's somebody out there who believes you and who will listen to you and wants you to know that you're okay and that you're safe. Kara: That's beautiful. Well, and you do convey, I mean, even with the things that you're saying with, you know,
you maybe don't always get your, your messaging the way you know, that you, that is optimal in your opinion, you know, but it's like you convey it, you convey it so, uh, easily. And like the response, even within my body when you're talking, it was like the number of times I had chills going up my spine just from things that you were sharing. Um, you know, you're, you're definitely hitting some important things with, you've got it. You've got it dialed in, in terms of how to convey it,

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which is really beautiful. Deb: That's good. Sorry. I still have some doubts about myself and my ability to do that and I think to myself, well, you sure in hell picked good one? You could somebody a little smarter, but you know, it is what Kara: No, you're do. You're amazing. You're so amazing. So has the contact continued as you've gone on? Deb: The contact is Kara: Mm-hmm. Deb: like a
different level now. I, I haven't had like the physical contact stuff, um, in years and years, probably since the late, early nineties. it. That was probably the last time. And again, that was with other people. So it wasn't Kara: Mm-hmm. Deb: Uh, trust me, I would doubt myself way more if it wasn't that there were always other people with me, you know? But, um, and I totally get it when

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people do doubt, you know, anything that they're saying because I, I, I mean, I would too if I hadn't seen it for myself, Kara: Yeah. Deb: But, uh, the experiences have changed. Things have changed with me now. I'm lucid dreaming. am. Um. Uh, I'm having more, I'm, I don't know if you know what like telekinesis is, you know, I've been playing with that. been able to, I get feelings from people. I can kind of sense things that are going
on with other people and like connect with them on a different kind of level than just, you know, like energetic Kara: Mm-hmm. Deb: And just things like that are happening. And mostly the lucid dreaming. And then there have been a couple times, now I'll tell you this one event, it's kind of interesting and it sounds absolutely insane. Kara: it already. Deb: if I could tell if I tell somebody else's story or if I heard someone else tell

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this story and I had an experience, I'd be like, okay. You know, seriously, I was, I was not asleep. This was not a dream. I had my earbuds in and I was outside walking, and it was a couple years ago in the fall, it was on a really nice warm day, in the middle of a cold fall. So I'm out there getting some vibes, some sun feeling really connected to the planet, just feeling very zen ish, you know, some kind of weird state of mind, just feeling real relaxed.
I'm out, just got my tunes in and I'm just chugging along hear a man's voice, not in my earbuds, but like from behind me, and he says, Hey, Deb. I pull my earbud out and I turn around fully expecting to see a neighbor. I didn't recognize the voice per se, but I fully expect to see a neighbor, want to tell me something. So I pulled my earbud out and turned around and there's no one there. And I thought, well, that's weird. I kinda looked at the, you know,

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the people see if somebody was like hiding behind a bush or gonna prank me or something like that. So I, and I said, hello. And then this guy just starts talking to me like he's standing next to me, but I can't see him. There's nobody there. And it's not coming out my earbud, 'cause my earbud is in my hand. And he says, Hey, do you know that? When do you see these little balls of
white light floating around out in your darkness? That's us. But where we live, we look just like you. know, I can see you from where I am, but you just look like a little ball of white light floating around in my darkness. And I'm like, okay. You know, I, I've, the startle part is over. so now I'm just curious 'cause I've, I lost that fear a long time ago. I'm like, uh, well are you

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dead? Because, you know, I'm into paranormal investigating and sometimes we. Encounter those things. I said, why are you, are you dead? Are you a spirit? He, he laughed and he said, no, I'm as, as alive as you are. And I said, well, are you one of those gray guys? You know, an alien again? He laughs and he says, no, they're your future. And I said, well, okay, well who are you? That was at end of conversation. I said, hello, hello. End of conversation. I looked
around real quick and I thought, I hope nobody saw me talking to the ear. I stuck my earbud back in my, my head and I started typing it all down in my notes on my phone and then immediately called, you know, my friends. I'm like, you're not gonna believe what just happened. This is the craziest I've ever heard in my life, and tell me I have not lost my mind. And they're like, that is wild. I'm like, why does this happen to me? did I was just minding my own

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business, you Kara: Yeah. Deb: So that's the kind of encounters that I have now. Kara: That's so fascinating. Well, it makes me think of the bubbles that you talk, the vision of the bubbles that you talked about before and how when the bubbles are kind of like attached to each other and those are universes and, but it's fascinating that he's like, I'm just like you are, but, and how much insight he had for you. Like he said that he can see you, but you look
like a ball of light to him. But he still, he knew your name. He knew he knew what it was like for you to see those lights and Deb: I know he knew me and I don't remember him, Kara: Yeah. Deb: I know him. Kara: Well, and you had that other experience with the, um, did it come through in the, with your son? Was it when you heard the voice say like, are the spirits there, Deb: Oh, that was Kara: your nephew? Deb: Yeah. And the man's voice said, are the spirits

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And then another little kid's voice said, can I listen to you? Um, yeah. And that's when I looked at my nephew and I'm like, oh my God, we're ghosts somewhere and somebody's trying to find EVP Kara: That is so wild. I mean, but the two stories together too, you know, I mean, it's Deb: I had a weird dream. Now I call this a dream, and I'm pretty sure it was a dream, but I, I, I don't know. Hell, I don't know anymore. Life. Life is but a dream. You know who,
knows? We may die and wake up. Who knows? uh, anyway. was, I woke up in this fabulous hospital and it was so beautiful and modern. Everything was white and clean and And I was laying in this bed that like, just hugged me. The mattress was just like formed around me and I felt so calm and peaceful. Big, beautiful window, all kinds of light coming in. I could see like beautiful flower gardens and trees and things outside, you know? And I'm like, this is the bomb

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man. You know? I'm like, and I wake up and I wake up in this bed. I'm like, oh, this is, where am I? I'm like, oh, this is, I don't care where I'm, this is great. You know? And then I get up and I go to the bathroom, then the bathroom is super cool. This toilet looks like the, you know, the captain's chair on star or something, you know? And Kara: A true throne. Deb: I guess I pee in here. I don't know. mean, went to the bathroom and I washed my hands, flushed on its own, got back into the bed
and when I lay sitting down at the bed, I was sitting on the edge of the bed and this young man walks in, big smile on his face, very nice looking. Young man, got a white lab coat on, so I assume he is a doctor or something. He's like, how are you this morning? And I go, I'm fine. How are you? And he's like, I'm really good. He goes, how's it going? You know, how you feeling? What's going on? And all this. And I'm like, this bed is amazing, this bed, it feels like it's hugging me. And I said, the

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bathroom is so level. He goes, this is so cool. This place is amazing. What is this place? And he says, well, the bed monitors every function of your body and can tell me. How you're doing health wise, you know? And it lets me know if you need attention for something and I can do certain things with the bed for you to help you. He goes, now the bathroom, toilet, when you use it, can tell me all kinds of things
about your health. Tell me all kinds of things about the things that you're eating, what you need to eat, what you need to help you be healthier and, and feel better. And he, I'm like, you're kidding me? And he goes, no, it's pretty cool, huh? And I go, yeah, it's really cool. I said, why am I, where am I at? Who are you? Why am I here? And he says, well, he's my grandson, but he's like my grandson to the

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nth degree. I mean like great-great-great, great, great, great, great, great, great. I mean in the distance grandson. he came and got me and brought me there. To monitor me to, to make sure I was okay and to check on me a few things and that I would be going home soon. But he wanted to let me know that he was keeping an eye on me, he loved me. And I'm like, well, that's cool as hell. Kara: Wow. Deb: asleep and I woke up. Kara: Wow. I mean, first of all, just the fact
that you woke up in your dream. I mean, Deb: up. Kara: yeah, in the, yes. I've done that too. Where, or I'll fall asleep in my dream and I'm like, how can I dream that I woke up or I dream that I fell asleep? Deb: And then I had another dream not too long ago that was bizarre as sort, sort of the same thing. I woke up in my bed, okay, this is the dream part. I woke up in my bed, got up outta the bed, like rub my eyes, went to the bathroom, all the things I always

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do. And then I went in the living room, there's my husband with my dogs. I thought, I looked around and I'm like, where's my stuff? You know, my decor. some of my decor was gone and exchange was other decor. Some of it was there, but not all of it. And there was some stuff there I didn't recognize. And there was some things about the house that were slightly different. Like the shape of the window was a little different. The footprint was basically the same. I looked at my husband, I said, where's my stuff? And he is like, what the hell
are you talking about? And I go, my stuff, where's my pictures? My decor, you know? And he is like, I don't know what you're talking about. I'm like, try to play me, don't be gaslighting me. Try and make me think I'm crazy now. That's not cool. I, I went outside, I looked up and down my street. of the houses looked the same, but there were a couple of houses that was different color. The paint was a different color the shingles were a different color or whatever. I'm like, what is happening? I get in the garage, get in my car, there's my

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car. No problem. I drive down the street to Myers. That's where I shop. Now I noticed before I turned in the parking lot of Myers, usually there's a, like a robocar wash there across the street, right? But there was no car wash there this time it was like a convenience store, but it wasn't any name I recognized like seven 11 or vp. You know? It was some other convenience store that I didn't recognize the name and I thought, where in the hell did that
come from? So when I turned in the parking lot of Myers and I looked around and I noticed slight differences up and down the street, but not, if I didn't look closely, I might not notice it wasn't the same. And all of a sudden it dawned on me, I don't belong here. And I said, I yelled in my dream at the top of my voice where the I. And the instant that those words left my mouth, I woke up for real in my bed and everything was back to normal. Kara: Whoa.

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Deb: And I told my, I told my BFF about. I'm like, girl. Where do we go when we sleep? Because I just went somewhere completely different, but yet not. Kara: gosh. Well, this reminds me a dream I just had a couple of days ago, um, that is sort of in the same vein. This was actually just on Friday or Thursday night, you know, Friday morning, and I was. With a man who was like, who knew what was going on? We, we were almost like co-conspirators.
He was the only other one who knew what was going on. And then my daughter was kind of this consistent, um, person through this dream, but she didn't know what was going on. And we were moving, um, into different timelines. And there was a four digit code that I could say, and it would switch timelines. And so I would say this code, and then I'd, and then I would know that everything had changed. But because I'm looking out through my eyes, I can

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only notice so much. I can't see how I've changed. So I would ask my daughter who didn't know what was going on, do you know who I am? And then she would like the fir the first time that I remember, you know, she, I say, do you know who I am? And she looks at me like I'm crazy. And she's like, yeah, grandma, I know who you are. And so I'm like, okay, so I'm grandma now and you know, my mom's mom and this guy is with me, you know, so he's kind of just observing. But
then I say the code again and I can tell that things shift. And my daughter's there and I ask her, and I don't remember if I asked her that time or if I just picked up like, okay, now she's talking to me like I'm her dad. And so that's what that one was. And then we, I tried to say the code at some point 'cause I, I switched like maybe four times or something. And I tried to say the code and nothing happened. And the guy that my, like escort or whoever he was, said

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the code is, and he gave me a different four digit code. 'cause he said in this timeline that other code isn't the code. So it was a different code. And, um, so then I said that one, and then it switched again. And my daughter was younger and she had, you know, different eyes and, and all of this stuff. But it was really so interesting because when I woke up I was like, oh my God, that's so, like what a, a cool dream to experience, just this shifting and how things
shift even to the extent that the code doesn't work anymore in that timeline because it's, it's like similar but different. And the fact that I couldn't see like the, I couldn't see how I had changed because I could only see out and all of that. But it's kind of similar, those things, you know, you shifted into a different timeline and had these like subtle, well they, to you they were obvious, but then there were still elements of this reality in that reality.

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So, fascinating. Deb: I know, I mean, maybe I'm. I've said to my friends before, maybe I'm just losing my mind slowly. Whatever it is, it's, you Kara: I don't think so. Deb: interested in something called quantum immortality, where you die in this life and you wake up in another one and you forget this one, and you just go on with that one and you, it just keeps on and on and on. I'm like, you know what? That's starting to make more and more sense. Now. That's
starting to make more sense now that I've had all these weird things Kara: Yeah. Deb: when you get close to Diane? I don't know, but uh, you know, anyways, Kara: Wow. Deb: for interesting life. I'll tell Kara: That's right. Wow. Well, you are just fascinating and delightful to talk to. I'm, I've enjoyed this conversation so much. I'm so grateful that you agreed to come on. Can you please tell people how they can connect with your work and learn more about you?

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Deb: I have a website that my husband's been maintaining for years and years. It's, it's deb's home.com. Pretty simple. And, uh, you can email me through there if you wanna share your stories with me. Um, maybe it might be able to connect you with somebody if you want to investigate your cases further. And then there's a lot of interesting science stories and, uh, articles and some of my photos and other things about me from my life that are shared there. And,
um, I wrote a couple books. The one abducted with my sister Kathy Mitchell was out of print and very hard to find. You might find it at a library or something, but then the i, in 2021, I wrote one called Extraordinary Contact Life Beyond Intruders. And you can get that at any online bookseller, like Barnes and Nobles or Amazon. and it's just basically my journals, the, the story of the intruders is in there in first person word again. And then it's, you know,

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as I've progressed over the years and up until I finished the book in 2021, so. Uh, and that's out there so you can learn a little bit more about me if you want do that Kara: Awesome. Do you have any events or anything that you do in the public? Deb: I don't do very much Kara: Mm-hmm. Deb: Uh, but I am gonna be speaking at the Eureka Springs UFO conference this year in Eureka Springs, Arkansas. Uh, and I think that's like April 9th through the 10th or ninth through the Kara: Mm.
Deb: our, and it's a good conference if you've never been to a UFO conference. Uh, that's a good one. They've been doing it for years, something like that. A long, long Kara: Wow. Deb: uh, this will be my fourth time there. going home for me cause the people there are so nice and the, the whole vibe in the area is Kara: That's awesome. Well, thank you again so much for being on here. I'm really grateful and I've loved hearing from you. Thank you. Deb: You're welcome. Thanks for